Sunday, June 6, 2010

THE LAST WORD ON LOST



"Heaven,
Heaven is a place,
a place where nothing,
nothing ever happens."
- Talking Heads

What should be the last word on LOST? Cheesy? Lame? Cliched? Cheap? Vapid? Insulting? All good options, but I think there's really only one word that ends up describing what LOST became in the end.



Stupid.

I'm not trying to be smug, but I predicted it would turn out like this. I knew it. I think we all did. It didn't happen all at once, but gradually the sloppiness and laziness of this much anticipated season became obvious. There was the wrong date on Aaron's sonogram, then Kate's name not being on the cave ceiling even though it supposedly was on the cave ceiling, the pointless Temple subplot, the Stargate Lighthouse, finally the awkward, stiff, so bad it made me cry scene where Michael was trotted out to give the lamest possible explanation for the whispers.



This scene was when it hit me. I can pinpoint it as the exact moment in time when I knew that this grand finale season was going to suuuuuuuuuuck. I didn't want to accept it just then but as the weeks went by, there was no escaping the reality.



As LOST's finale season careened to its dreadful clusterfuck of a conclusion, carrying the reputation of a once great series on its back, even The Darlton tried to warn us away from hoping for too much. They started to say stuff like this:



"We're going to get killed," said executive producer Damon Lindelof.

They'd been all but screaming from the rooftops that we wouldn't be getting any goddamn Answers. It was all about the characters, yo. Those stupid questions were all red herrings! Not just the big ones, like Walt and Aaron and the Numbers. All of them!



At times they got downright insulting about it:


Not only did Damon inadvertently describe the process by which American kids grow up both stupid and fat, but he made it clear exactly how much respect he had for his audience. Which is to say - he thought we were chumps. He thought we weren't really interested in answers to the gajillion questions he'd posed. We didn't want to see the design behind the mysteries and characters revealed in a brilliant fashion that would reward us for our years of devotion. All we really wanted was cheap, generic junk food. So that's the way he ended his series.

To be fair, we should acknowledge that putting together a great series finale is a daunting project. The history of tv finale success is spotty. There are the famously poignant.



The famously funny.



The infamously awful.



The controversial



And the sublime.


Obviously the boy wonders knew everything LOST had ever been was hanging in the balance on May 23. Carlton Cuse himself described the metric by which he knew they'd be judged.


We don’t know whether the resolution between the two timelines is going to make people say, “Oh, that’s cool” or “Oh, fuck those guys, they belly-flopped at the end.”

So which was it? Cool? Or a belly flop?


I've been MIA the last third of this wretched finale season. It turns out it's not really much fun to hate on something that you once loved. It feels terrible actually.



I'm embarrassed to remember how naively I approached this season, described by Cuse as a precious Christmas present they were going to slowly let us unwrap. I even went back last fall and recapped the glorious Season One in excrutiating detail, believing the hype that we were finally about to revisit that masterpiece and watch all its mysterious potential be fulfilled.



I tried to imagine how cool, how fun, how satisfying, it would be to see the big clock come together under the hands of the master watchmakers.


Instead what we got were gears and springs and meaningless numbers strewn all over the floor like a fish kill of red herrings, while the "watchmakers" mocked the audience for ever mistaking them for people who cared. Yes, if you're wondering, I do feel kind of stupid. I had faith in these two bozos. What can I say?


As tempting as it may be, it's probably wrong to blame Darlton. After all, it was our own choice to keep watching. We decided all on our own to imagine that we were playing some kind of puzzle. No one told us to expect that! Why would we think that a story about six magical numbers that were magically connected to cataclysmic events, or a story about an island where diseases are cured but pregnancy kills, or a story that wove intersecting timelines into a vast interdimensional web of coincidences and fate - why would we think any of that was meant to be a puzzle??? We must really be stupid!


It was our own free choice to gabble away on message boards these last few seasons talking about wormholes and string theory and exotic matter and Schrodingers goddamn cat. We did it long after it became obvious that these two guys weren't able to write that kind of story. It was obvious they weren't quantum physicists. Or even the kind of guys who passed physics in high school.



No one told us we had to prattle like morons about determinism and gnoticism and Manicheism and Buddhism and Catholicism and Egyptology and Philip V. Dick. I mean look at these two guys. Why would we think they had some kind of wisdom to offer?


You know who these two really remind me of now? The two con men who pretended to be tailors in Hans Christian Anderson's The Emperor's New Clothes. They convinced the dopey Emperor he was getting a new set of gorgeous threads, but really he just ended up walking down the street with everyone laughing at the pimples on his butt. The Emperor, it turns out, was us.

At least we were in good company. In the days after the finale, I got calls and emails from pretty much every family member, friend, frenemy or casual acquaintance who had ever loved LOST, or knew that I once did. There were sighs, sad shakes of the head, muttered expletives, viral video exchanges and the always hilarious fancraft that LOST fans had raised to an artform.



The consensus was unanimous:



But how did the finale fare out in the land of media, both old and new? Did they stick their landing or did they ...

?

I realize there were some in the fast food media who, as expected, were bowled over by the cliche overload of the finale. USA Today not only found it "thrilling", " clever" and "profound", but they mocked those of us who'd bought into that silly mystery crap.
If you were looking for explanations for every twist and turn, you didn't get them. (Some viewers won't be satisfied until the producers churn out a multi-volume island manual that answers questions that were never actually posed.)
And as expected, both "I live next door to Damon" Kristin dos Passos and Cheerleader in Chief Jeff Jensen dissolved into predictably soggy heaps of teary satisfaction.
“The End” was an emotionally draining epic that had me crying with almost every single “awakening” and has left me mulling the true significance of the Sideways world, which was revealed to be a Purgatory-like realm created by the souls of the dead castaways themselves. (Purgatory! The irony!) I was so happy The Island was saved. I was so moved by Jack’s heroism and sacrifice and the glorious significance of ending where he began, as well as that Doubting Thomas allusion there at the end. … I loved Ben’s contrition. I loved Locke’s forgiveness. I loved it when Ben told him to stand up and walk again, and Locke did.


But if Darlton let themselves listen to anyone other than their friends in lowbrow places, they probably realized they're going to have to stay in that bunker a little bit longer than anticipated. The New York Times trashed it on both the Arts page:
But you have to think that the gauzy, vaguely religious, more than a little mawkish ending of ‘Lost’ – “Touched by a Desmond” — will not sit well with a lot of the show’s fans. ... The “Sopranos” finale was ambiguous and a bit of a shrug, but not puzzling; to me the “Lost” finale, in the immediate aftermath, felt forced and, well, a bit of a cop-out.


and the Editorial section:
Across six seasons, it’s true, we learned endless facts about the island — about its geography, its inhabitants, and what had happened on it across decades and centuries. But we never learned the whys behind the facts. And with the final season in the books, there’s good reason to think that we never learned them because the show’s creators never had a well-thought-out “why” for their story in the first place. The island wasn’t a real mystery — it was just a MacGuffin.


Max Read at Gawker thought "The Lost Finale was incredibly Dumb", which pretty much sums up the consensus of my inner circle:
Once upon a time, there was a television show about a bunch of people on an island. For six years it was one of the most fascinating things on TV. And then it ended, in the worst way possible. ... Lost ended tonight, and with it the hopes and dreams of millions of people who thought it might finally get good again. SPOILER ALERT: It didn't. What did we learn? Nothing. We learned nothing from two-and-a-half hours of slow-motion bullshittery backed with a syrupy soundtrack.


Televisionary's Jace Lacob tried really hard to hide his disappointment in this piece at The Daily Beast, but he couldn't quite do it.
“The End” didn’t so much answer the long-dangling mysteries—Why do pregnant women die on the island? Why was the character of Walt (Malcolm David Kelley) special? What is this island? What was with all of the Egyptian hieroglyphics? What was the character of Desmond’s ultimate purpose on the island?—as it did ignore them altogether....Considering how much time viewers have spent trying to figure out the relationship between the island timeline and the Sideways one, it is also frustrating that it turned out that there is none—or more precisely, that what happened in the Sideways timeline didn’t affect what happened on the island at all.


Aside from coining the pithiest descripiton of the finale - "a prom of the dead in a chapel of love where everybody is farting rainbows" - Chadwick Martin of Slate nailed one of the finale's main flaws:
There are second chances in life, but there are no do-overs. At least all the time travel, the donkey wheels, the smoke monsters were vehicles to explore the human condition. They were as fantastical as purgatory, yes, but they were also grounded in the terrestrial realities of life, death, and the pursuit of happiness. The show's purgatorial clusterfuck is not. It is a venue for wish-fulfillment. Thus, the finale wronged not just me, but the show itself.

As did Laura Miller at Salon :
A series like "Lost" doesn't need to solve all of its riddles, but it does need to address the right ones.... The comic-book paraphernalia and texture of the island -- its secret bunkers with their code names, Jacob's migrating cabin with its creepy paintings, the ersatz normality of the Others' compound ringed by those sonic pylons and the fantastically mechanical grinding and dragging sounds that used to accompany the appearance of the smoke monster -- were not peripheral to the heart of "Lost." They were the very essence of its appeal.
And the message of the Hero Quest in mythology is certainly not the gauzy, happy, angels-at-the-doorway one "Lost" fans had to settle for last night. Once Jack stepped into the church it looked like he was walking into a Hollywood wrap party without food or music -- just a bunch of actors grinning idiotically for 10 minutes and hugging one another.

Scott Mendelson's fine essay, republished at The Huffington Post, decided that the finale was so bad that it managed to nullify the series almost as a whole, although he - like me - hopes it will still be possible to enjoy the first three seasons before this series started its sad, end date driven decline:
By leaving everything unanswered right up to the end, and then pulling a narrative switcheroo instead of finishing the story that was being unveiled, Lost basically mocked those who bothered to watch from the very beginning, as such rabid viewership proved entirely unnecessary. Thus, the finale of Lost rendered the entire series run relatively pointless and effectively killed any and all rewatchability of the prior episodes. So, in the end, Lost ended for me with season three.
With all that and so much more being said, is there really any point in me writing anything else about this sad spectacle ? Is there anything left that really needs to be said? I'm over it. I could live without never giving LOST another thought. I'm literally itching to erase it off my dvr. But I promised I'd do this. Inquiring minds seem to want to know what it all meant to me. So, here we go, one last time, for old time's sake.


I think others have pretty much covered the shameful way we were taunted with questions that were never intended to be answered, even as recently as the run-up to this season. They were running full speed ahead right up until late April, not only implying that we'd be rewarded for our detective work, but throwing new questions at us! Of course everyone was excited to see what the answer to the puzzles would be. And then we got this:


The superclunker episode Across the Sea. We found out the only thing worse than getting no answers was getting the LAME answers they came up with. Why did they even bother to answer the pointless Adam and Eve "mystery", for instance? Was that at the top of anyone's mind? As compared to things like - who bankrolled all Ben's trips off the Island, who was Penny's mother, why did Libby give Desmond a sailboat, what was the sickness, why did Rousseau's crew hear the numbers on the radio, why did Claire leave Aaron ... not to mention all those silly little trifles like why was Walt so special and why did pregnant women die and what the hell was up with those numbers? But nope. They didn't feel the need to address any of those mysteries. They needed to give us a bogus backstory for two skeletons that almost no one remembered. Why?



My guess is because Damon had stupidly bragged about it back in 2007:
Of course, in his hamfisted way, he managed to prove exactly the opposite. It added nothing to that remembered moment to find out that Jacob, the 40,000 year old virgin, buried his bad twin and his another raising mother in the cave after a night of interfamily murder. We just met these people. They meant nothing to us.



Their story was tacked on, like everything else in Season Six. In fact, the whole finale could have been slapped on at any random endpoint. It wasn't a culmination or an inevitability or a hard earned catharsis. The message that after death we'll all live happily ever after with our bestest BFFs could have been, as one reviewer noted, a perfectly good finale for Saved by the Bell or Happy Days. Or a kiddie cartoon, for that matter.



What's more, by bottom loading all the mysteries and saving them for the end, rather than building them organically into the fabric of the story, they belied the pretense that they were master storytellers. A good story needs pacing. I had assumed their need for a fixed end date was in order to allow them to pace their story. But we all know now that had nothing to do with it.


We could tell that Mama Clegg was not the Island's Eve. She was only another interim hermit guardian, just like Jacob. Someone came before her, maybe the people that carved the cuneiform marks into the big stone plug. Someone before Momsy built the light sealing contraption inside the big shiny hole. Who was that person? Why did they do it? We never really learned why the Island was special, what was the source of its power, what its power really was. We never learned why the Smoke Monster had to be contained on the Island, what would have happened if he'd escaped. We entered the final battle of the story without knowing the stakes.



We just knew it was really important for Jack. Because he used to be a man of science. And now he is a man of faith. Faith in the Island. OK. But why?


The story never created any meaningful metaphor for the Island. It was the "warmest, brightest light you've ever seen or felt." It was a little piece of "something that's inside of every man." The enemy was "evil incarnate". It would all "only end once", except that - since Hurley became Jacob - it didn't! It was a myth that was never told, a myth, if we can even call it that, that never coalesced into anything more than mawkish abstractons. It meant nothing. It was just pretty pictures.



What's more, the characters themselves experienced no consequences. The very same second that The Great Jacksus laid down his life, he was handed his eternal reward. His sacrifice wasn't a sacrifice at all, just the last step in him being handed all the presents and goodies and heavenly lollipops that anyone could ever dream of.



It was a pretty sweet deal. Save the world and go straight to heaven. Doesn't really tug at my heartstrings. Or make me feel anything at all. No stakes. No consequences. No metaphor. No myth.




But all this ground has been covered, and better, by others. Few disagree that in the end the LOST "storytellers" failed in their central mission - to pull together a coherent and satisfying end to the mysteries they themselves had chosen to create. But I was surprised to see how many, at least in the immediate aftermath, seemed to think that the finale succeeded in a different area - that of giving resolution to the characters. It became like the one good thing people could say about LOST - that it was a terrible ending, but at least the characters all got "satisfying resolutions". I don't know where they're seeing that. Maybe people just need to convince themselves that it couldn't possibly be as bad as it all really, really was.



To be fair, not everyone was fooled. But far too many were. If I have to pick what I consider to be the Number One Inconvenient Truth about the LOST Finale, it would be this:

It was NOT "about the characters."

The biggest secret that Darlton managed to hide from us was that the characters never really mattered. At all. Yes, LOST had a great cast of mostly wonderful actors, who emoted the shit out of the material they were given to work with, even if it was often insane nonsense. But charismatic acting is not the same thing as good characterization.


I think the primary failure of LOST's end story was its failure to respect and resolve its characters. Except for Jack, none of the characters got any better resolution than the mysteries did.



Let's start with a somewhat minor, but nonetheless pivotal, character. Claire and her baby, who she'd been apocalyptically warned must not be raised by another, seemed to be mystically connected to the Island.


But then Claire dropped Aaron in a cabbage patch. He got raised by another anyway. And Claire became a crazed axe murderer.




That was her character arc. We never saw how she went crazy. We never saw what happened when Aaron got his Mad Mama back. We missed every interesting thing that Claire's story could ever have been about. All we know is that Claire eventually died and re-birthed Aaron in her self created purgatory while she waited for her big brother Jack to arrive, so she could spend eternity with Charlie - the guy whose death she never even mourned.



How was this character arc resolved? What is satisfying about this characterization? How is it even a characterization? It's a collection of cutesy coincidences - She's Jack's sister! She's crazy like Rousseau! Only worse! - that ultimately went nowhere and meant nothing.


Ok, maybe you say Claire's a bad example, because she wasn't an important enough character. Let's take the great John Locke then. Because no one can say Locke wasn't an important character. How did this great character get his resolution in the finale?



Well, basically he stayed dead.



Until Jack came to fix him.



John Locke, who so wanted to be special and who came to the Island and had his legs magically restored and who had a child's faith in the beautiful Island and who tried and failed to convince Jack to stay and who left what he loved and sacrificed his life for the sake of his Island - his "resolution" was that he got to wait in Limbo Land until Jack - freaking Jack - got around to not only dying, but to accepting that he was dead.



Locke's character "resolution" was to further the glory of Jack, even in death. What once seemed like an epic duel between equally matched protagonists went out with a weak, faint sounding pfffffffft. By the time the big showdown happened, Locke wasn't even there.


Like so much of the audience, Locke got screwed. Sorry, John, you were just road kill on the Highway to Jack's Heaven.



But don't worry. Be happy! It's not like there's anything we can do about it now. Except maybe this ...



Sun and Jin's "resolution" came at the end of three long seasons wherein they both did, collectively, nothing.



Finally they reunited. Then they died the next day, with not even a passing acknowledgment of the daughter who had been at the heart of their story. In Purgatory, or Limbo, or whatever the hell that Sideways bullshit was, they had to wait - for Jack, of course - until they could speak English (the language of Jack's heaven) and follow their dear leader into the light.



We can also add Sayid to the list of screwed over characters.



In post-9/11 America, it was shocking to see an Iraqi soldier in the Revolutionary Guard presented as a sympathetic character. But Sayid worked his way into our hearts, despite being the sickest killer in the bunch, because he was a passionate man. Who loved Nadia.



Nadia was at the nexus of all his moral quandaries - he betrayed his country for her, he betrayed his boyhood friend for her, he struggled off the Island and married her, only to lose her again. And with her death, he lost his soul. His character resolution? Well, first - of course - he had to wait for Jack. Obviously. Then ... uh ... he hooked up with Shannon and he got to go to Heaven!



Did this make sense to anyone???? Was this supposed to be a joke?


Sadly no. They were serious about this shit. See, Sayid didn't really love the woman he'd devoted his life to, the woman his entire story had been about. He only wanted what all men want in Geekland - a blonde American babe.


Hurley apparently lived out his roly poly life on the Island, maybe for centuries, with Ben. Although that might have made a great season of LOST all by itself, we never got a glimpse of it.



Instead we learned that the only great thing in Hurley's extremely long life was Libby, the girl he once almost went on a picnic with the day before she got shot. Nothing else. So once he finally died, he - like everyone else - waited for Jack, and then finally, I guess, he got to have a girlfriend, even if they were both dead.


Sawyer's story ended in Season Four.


We had watched his evolution, one of the most beautiful in the show,



from guilt ridden, self loathing orphan to passionate lover and hero.



But in Season Four, fanboys everywhere rejoiced as Sawyer's hotness got sucked away and he was reincarnated as a neutered Deputy Dawg, flashing big buttery grins at his tall blond Dharma-wife.



And that was it for poor Sawyer. He got to scream and cry while Juliet died ... over and over again ... then he sat on his ass until it was time for Jack to save the world. Then he did absolutely nothing for all the rest of his life until it was time for the most anticlimactic and uninspired cup of coffee in tv history. And then he hugged Jack, and he too got to pass through the pearly gates.



Character? Resolution? I can't find either one in this story. The complex, charismatic character that stole my heart and first addicted me to LOST disappeared the day he jumped off the helicopter and saved the life of the woman he loved. I watched and I hoped and I put up with Carlton's insulting insinuations that we were only watching to see him take his shirt off, but the Sawyer that I loved never ever returned to LOST.



Kate didn't do any better. We don't know when she died but we know she never met anyone better than Jack. That's sad enough. You didn't deserve that, Kate.



This is where the poor character development leads straight into The Second Inconvenient Truth About the Lost Finale:

It had a very depressing message.

In order to believe in whatever the Shiny Happy Afterlife was meant to be, we have to believe that nothing that ever happened to Kate, Sawyer or Claire after they left the Island ever meant a damn thing. They had to wait TO DIE before they could live.



Well, technically, they had to wait for JACK to die before they could live again.


If we accept that the gang in the church had to be there together because they were the only people that truly mattered to one another, we have to realize that all these people lived HORRIBLE lives here on earth. Think of all those who didn't matter to them:



Charlie Hume didn't matter to his Mom and Dad, and neither did Ji Yeon, a fetus for all eternity.


Hurley didn't want to be with Grandpa Tito or Mami Carmen or any of the people who loved and raised him.

Helen was good enough for Locke's purgatory, but she didn't rank high enough to make it into his heaven.


Jack's alcoholic, philandering daddy was the High Holy Priest in his Heaven,



but the old Moms who put up with being married to this creep didn't rate any heavenly reward.



Sorry, Margo, your son just wasn't that into you.


Juliet had no place in her heaven for the sister and nephew she longed to see for so long.



Nadia? She was no biggie to Sayid. Just a passing fling.



Boone never had anyone in his life who meant anything to him at all and the greatest moment of Shannon's life were those few weeks she spent trying to breathe without her inhaler in the Rape Caves before she got shot in the gut.



Kate and Sawyer never missed their mothers either, or Tom, or Clementine, or Kevin, or each other.



The only thing this "heaven" proved is that all of these people lived sad, loveless lives on earth. But so what if life sucked for all the Losties? They got to be in a clean, perfect heaven with all the other pretty people, paired up like the giraffes and zebras on Noah's ark.



In the LOST credo, it turned out the only thing that ever matters in life is finding a Schmoopie. Parents, children, lovers, friends - none of it means a damn thing. The key to life is The Schmoopie.



Throughout the years, LOST made a big show of flashing various religious symbols at us like stolen watches from under a trenchcoat. The Church of Shiny Happy People felt like self parody, what with all the spiritual tchotchkes stuffed into every available corner.



A dharmachakra, an aum, a menorah, a Ganesh ... I guess they couldn't find space to shove in any voodoo chicken feet or Rasta spliffs or Wiccan wands.



But no one should have been fooled. The religious message of LOST was conventional Judeo-Christian group think of the most joyless kind.



Humans must unquestioningly accept the will of a capricious, often vicious Higher Power, because he's Jacob and you're not. Life's a bitch and then you die, but in the religion of LOST, once you find your Schmoopie ... and once the great St. Jacksus arrives of course ... even cold blooded killers can all go to Hollywood Heaven together.


Damon Lindelof: This is the critical mystery of the season, which is, “What is the relationship between these two shows? ... Where’s Libby? Where’s Ana Lucia? Where’s Eko? These are all the things that you’re supposed to be thinking about.

Got that? The only question Darlton cared about answering in their finale season, the ONLY one, was this: What was the Sideways universe? The Sideways that didn't even exist until this season. And what was the big revelation about the Sideways? That it was a completely separate, non intersecting, non connecting afterlife that the characters "created for themselves" while they waited to enter Heaven, or the light, or what the fuck ever. After swearing for years their story wasn’t about Purgatory, they made their finale season all about ... frigging Purgatory! Haha! Gotcha!



It's not that making the story about Purgatory would have been such a terrible idea. It could have been a coherent theme to carry over the seasons, showing us each person's passage to Enlightenment after their death. But this mish mosh didn't even make any kind of theological sense as Purgatory. What was the point of it, except to bide everyone's time until Jackie-poo arrived? Sawyer did not create a purgatory where he could repent for the murder of the innocent sweet shrimp seller.



Kate did not atone for the wrongs she'd done. In fact, she made herself a world where she was innocent, wrongfully accused. All that bad stuff? Nevah hoppened.



Charlie was still on the junk needle in his self created purgatory, only richer than Croesus this time around.



Sun and Jin for some reason created a purgatory where they were even more miserable, where Jin killed people and Sun got shot.



And Sayid apparently filled his self created purgatory with even more murders – I guess the ones he didn’t get around to committing in his killing spree of a life.



By creating a trite, pat purgatory, all the stories we'd invested in suddenly felt shallow and pointless. In one fell swoop, they managed to dishonor almost every character and render their stories meaningless. It didn't reflect the reality of our human experience, where all our acts have real consequences, where we don't have an escape hatch into paradise, like we found out the Losties had. But this purgatory had other problems as well. Basically it just didn't make any goddamn sense.



Was the highpoint of Aaron's life really the day he was born? It's hard to imagine how horrifying this poor kid's life was if the first six hours were the highlight. Or was Aaron just a symbol, not an actual human baby with a soul of his own? Even in death, was Aaron just a prop in Jack's Heaven?




Why was Eloise worried that Desmond would take Daniel away?



If she was "awake" and understood that she was dead, why was she still in purgatory? And why didn't she understand how it worked? She had been paired with her Schmoopie, so why couldn't she get on the Ark?



What was Ben waiting for? Did he need Danielle Rousseau to wake up too?



Because of course Danielle would want to spend eternity with the mouse faced creep who made her life a living hell, rather than the dearly beloved father of her child. She just hadn't woken up yet and realized who her true schmoop was.



Why wasn't Michael allowed into Jack's heaven? He blew himself up with a bomb just like Sayid did. Why did he have to be trapped on the Island as a whisper? Was it because he didn't have a Schmoopie?



And what about poor Walt? Not only wasn't he special in any way, but none of the other 815-ers wanted him in the heaven they created for themselves. Can you believe it? They wanted Libby there, but they didn't want Walt! They wanted Penny there and most of them didn't even know who she was! Boy, they really, really held that puberty thing against him, didn't they?



Why was Juliet Jack's wife?


Seriously. Why in the hell would she create that for herself? And why would she have an imaginary son with him? Forget about the realization that her precious sister actually never meant anything to her. I'm more hung up on that numbingly redundant candy machine conversation. When Miles listened to her dead body, remember that he heard her say "it worked"? What was she talking about? The bomb worked? Her hope to never have met Sawyer worked? No! She was talking about the candy machine of course!



When Sawyer unplugged it and plugged it back in, it worked! Wow! How clever was that? I mean, that's why we all stuck with LOST, wasn't it? For stupid gimmicky shout outs and conversations written entirely in cutesy catchphrases.



See? Look! It was an Apollo candy bar! And Number 23! Holy moly! My mind, she is blown! Darlton, you iz geniuses!



So the whole Sideways/Purgatory/Bullshitland that the characters "created" for themselves after death was not about Redemption (except for Jack.) And it wasn't about Free Will, one of the other alleged "themes" of LOST. The characters may have created this place, but they didn't know they were doing it, and they didn't know why they did it, and most of the connections they unwittingly created for themselves meant absolutely nothing in the final denouement, just like all the connections built into the pre-crash flight and the off Island world meant absolutely nothing.



LOST wasn't about connections at all, you see.



It was all about how many times you can pull a meaningless WhatTheFUCK plot twist on the audience. It turns out, you can pull an entire show out of your ass based on nothing but constant gotchas and contrivances, and you'll be able to fool ... well, a whole lot of people. For a really long time. Like for six years.



I think so far we’ve established one thing: Thinking about the LOST finale is not a useful exercise. The whole Man of Faith vs. Science debate, as presented on LOST, was designed to undermine the value of thought and contemplation, to degrade intellectualism. Just believe. Just have "faith". And what we were asked to have Faith in on LOST was ... Nonsense. On LOST, the Faith argument was used to hide lazy thinking and cheap storytelling. The only thing we were having Faith in all along was Chuck E. Cheese.



So here's another Inconvenient Truth that we learned from the finale:

LOST had no intellectual design behind it.

In the past if I'd seen this image of the Monster being thrown off the cliff:



I'd have dug out my favorite Dore print of Lucifer being thrown out of heaven. But at this point that feels like it would only be giving them a respect they don't deserve. I wasn't impressed that Jack's hicky turned out to be a mark from the tip of a knife. I really didn't care that Jack stumbled to his death from a wound to his right side, like the wound Doubting Thomas pondered in the picture Jack gazed at in 316. I can't be bothered to dig out images to illustrate these things. I get it. Symmetry. Mirrors.


I always did love the visual imagery of LOST, but you can't just throw random symbolic elements onscreen and call that a story.

By the end, LOST had lost all its intrigue for me, 100%. Without a story behind them, symbols alone feel superficial, and cloyingly facile.


I had given up on the idea that there was an intelligent design behind LOST's Famous Thinker Namedropping, but I was still dumbfounded by how incredibly facile and superficial the use of imagery became.




Not only could we tell that a man was good based on whether he was blond and blue eyed (Aryan=Good) and wearing a white tunic, but we could even tell the moral destiny of a baby by the color of his blanket! And see! They were playing a game. Like how the LOST writers were playing a game with us.


I can't have been the only one who misread Damon Lindelof's New York Times editorial some years ago. Remember how he had the audacity to lecture J.K.Rowlings on how she should end the Harry Potter books? I think a lot of people thought he was advising her to be brave, to do the unexpected, to do the unpopular. But re-reading that thing, it's obvious he was saying no such thing. In point of fact, he was laying out exactly the way he planned to end LOST - catering to what he considered to be the stupidity and short attention spans of the American public.
THE BOY WHO DIED...

"We Yanks, however, do not want froufrou endings. We want things definitively tied up. And by “things” I mean lots of people dead."
"We really like gratuitous explosions."


"Because if there’s one thing we like more than explosions, it’s surprises."

I kind of wish, as an American, that people like Damon wouldn't speak for what "we Yanks" appreciate. I'd just like to let the global audience out there know that not all Yanks tell their kids to shut up and eat cheese and not all Yanks are proud of being stupid and unimaginative.



I am one Yank who became totally enchanted by the "froufrou" of LOST's endless literary, religious, scientific and philosophical allusions. Yes, I gradually recognized that it was an exercise in futility, but I still hoped against hope that there was some bare bones design behind it all, some order to the chaos. But the truth is out now: There wasn't any. Ever.

In other words, they were saying that great minds in history had addressed great issues and told great stories ... but Lindelof and Cuse weren't trying to do that. They were just copycats. Who didn't have the skills. Sort of like this:



I think Darlton should have taken this full disclosure thing one step further. The writers who influenced them weren’t Lewis Carroll or James Joyce or C.S. Lewis. Come on, guys! Be honest. The literary influences in your writing room were more along these lines, right?


Killer the dog WAS. Now Killer was born to a three-legged bitch mother. And he was always ashamed of this, man. And then right after that, he's adopted by this man, Tito Liebowitz. He's a small-time gunrunner and, uh, rottweiler fight promoter. So he puts Killer into training, next thing you know Killer's GOOD! He is DAMN good! But then, he had the fight of his life. They pit him against his brother Nibbles. And Killer said, "No, man, that's my brother, I can't fight Nibbles!" And he made him fight anyway. And then Killer, Killed Nibbles. And Killer said, "That's it!" And he called off all his fights, and he started doing crack, and he ffffffff-FREAKED OUT. And then in a rage, he collapsed, and his heart... no longer beat. Wow.
Anyone who ever followed Damon Lindelof on Twitter, begging people to vote up LOST on some poll where it was losing out to Ghost Hunters or something, knows that this dude believed in the power of the button pushers. He said as much in another inadvertent admission hidden in that infamous NY Times editorial:
"I read an article recently saying that 80 percent of American poll respondents said they thought Harry wouldn’t survive the final book. As is the case in many polls, there’s probably a degree of wish-fulfillment here. In other words, we want the little bugger to die."
I don't see how poll watching could ever be a good practice in any creative enterprise. It seems to me that "conventional wisdom" is in itself the death knell of originality. But we do know the boy wonders liked to follow polls, and given the dumbassery of the LOST fandom, this may possibly explain how LOST managed to fail so utterly. Let's look for a minute at the kind of fans who truly and deeply loved this LOST finale. First of all there's people like this lovely young Jate fan:
Fuck you all, dirty whores. Yes I'm talking abotu real people because you suck and fail at life. I loathe you all haters, you deserve all the spit and shit on your faces as you can get for all those years trolling the internet. Our fandom doesn't have any respect? STFU you son of a bitch you! Keep fooling yourselves that Skate was eyefucking the whole season. You're only embarrasssing yourselves, even some decent skaters can see. Yes, there are sane skaters out there who appreciate them sanely.

These are your fans, Damon. You own them now. Don't look now, but they may be all you got left. We've learned now that fanmail campaigns and obsessive poll rigging pay off when the writers have neither balls nor any kind of plan. Sure, you managed to destroy your show's reputation and legacy, and sure, your name will be mud to any LOST fan who ever tried to follow the show on an intelligent level, but you did manage to satisfy geniuses like the poster quoted above. So, uh ... Congrats?



It would be wrong for me to blame the batshit Jate/Suliet fans entirely for how inane and angry the LOST online discourse became. By far the bigger culprits were the vicious, often misogynist fanboy types who camped out at the site run by my old friend DarkUFO. Given Darlton's addiction to pandering to the lowest common denominator in the fandom, there's no way they weren't aware of the whims of Fanboy Central. On that loud, big, spoiler whoring board, any sensible disagreement or alternate viewpoint about LOST was systematically shouted down, mocked to shit and banned out of existence by the torch and pitchfork carrying villagers.


It's sad to think that LOST was once considered cutting edge precisely because of the cyber-conversation that had grown up between fans and writers, a conversation that may have ultimately destroyed the integrity of the story. Laura Miller's Salon piece makes a great case for another Inconvenient Truth:

LOST was "Ruined By Its Own Fans"
From statements the producers of "Lost" have made over the past five years, they developed a dynamic with die-hard fans (and disillusioned fans and skeptical non-fans) that was infinitely more complex than any of the personal relationships among the series' characters. Could it be that in resisting the geekiest, nitpickingest, most Aspergerian demands of their audience they swung too far in the opposite direction, dismissing as trivial everything but the cosmic (the tedious and largely unnecessary Jacob-Smokey background) and the sentimental (making sure that every character receives his or her designated soul mate or therapeutic closure of the most banal Dr. Phil variety)? If so, "Lost" may be the quintessential example of a pop masterpiece ruined by its own fans.
Infintely more complex, indeed. DarkUFO was despised, and rightly so, by the LOST inner circle, because of his thoughtless and selfish spoiling of their big Season 3 and 4 finale surprises. So, was it REVENGE that made Darlton write an endgame that fanboys hated even more than Skaters? If so then the irony of Fanboys and Skaters being on the same side is delicious. Nice job, dudes.



Fanboys and Skaters were the natural enemies of the LOST Fan Kingdom. Aside from Andy Page's smarmy egotism, the defining feature of his site was his petty vindictiveness towards Skaters, most likely because we were the ones who unmasked him for the poll rigging liar and all around skeevebag that he was. How petty was he? I don’t think anyone outside of Fishbiscuitland quite understands. For years he lurked 24/7 on our board under his chosen alias:
mary2009!



Miss Mary mostly just used our site as one of the many from which he’d steal spoilers or pictures or media mentions, all of which he’d post on his own board without credit. But in the run up to the finale, his juvenile pettiness was on full display. One night, when I guess he was getting bored down in that basement bunker, he put on his best squealing imitation of what he thought a dumbass Skater fangirl would sound like:
I juust had my friends sister email me about the finale. She works on the set if LOST She told me that in the finale that Kate tells Jack she loves him Uve now given up on this show after the Juliet kiss scen
And then a few moments later:
They are sending me scans tomorrow. And they will send to dark UFO tomorrow as well I promise I am not lying and this is real I wish it was not: (((((((((
I busted him right away, explaining that even squalid fangirls were smart enough to trace an IP, and he ran straightaway, skirts flying over his head, to erase the evidence that he was, in fact, every bit the petty, juvenile twit we’d always known him to be. Apparently he didn’t want anyone to know that the great and powerful DarkUFO loved to troll among the squalid shippergirls he always claimed to despise. We banned the bastard after that, but Lord knows how many other sock puppets this douchebag had over the years, or how deeply into the pie his poll rigging fingers really were. It’s all water under the bridge now, thankfully – one more reason to be happy that LOST is over.


LOST is over, MaryAndy. Suck it up. You have to go out and get a job now.

MaryAndy may have just been one of the creepy curiosities of the LOST fandom, but his Skate Hate was something that was shared by most of the fanboys who followed LOST, including, it seems the Alpha Nerds who wrote this dreck. It brings me to one of the biggest downers of my LOST experience. Maybe it doesn't quite count as an Inconvenient Truth, but it's a Truth nonetheless.

Nerds hate romance.

In fact, I’m pretty sure that most nerds wouldn't know Romance if it jumped up and kissed them on the mouth. That’s part of what makes them nerds, after all. Sci Fi and Fantasy genres have never been a romance friendly milieu. Romance, when it appears at all, is generally very stilted and unrealistic, and caters to the male sensibility exclusively. Most women in this genre are blond. All women are beautiful, although beauty is completely optional for the male half. It is common, and preferable, in Nerd Romance, that the female abjectly worship her mate. Strangely, though, Nerd Romance rarely features ... s.e.x.



I'm sure many are wondering how I feel about Sawyer and Kate being left flat in the finale, about them being the only couple left out of the great cosmic circle jerk. Every obscure, asexual couple in the show's history, from the non starter of Daniel & Charlotte to the anti-romance of Ben & Danielle got some kind of validation in the story, yet the long romance of Sawyer & Kate, deeply embedded into the fiber of the story, was ignored completely. I was disappointed, but not shocked, and not all that broken up over it. It's hardly the only thing that didn't make sense, and it’s not like it made the finale any worse. I don't think there was any way it could have been any worse, to be honest. It may well have been a blessing in disguise that they didn't pander to Skaters. If they had, I might have been tempted to watch it again, and this way I'm forever protected from that fate.


The gloopy cheese-bubbles that were meant to signal eternal schmoopiness in the "The End" made the Gray's Anatomy's finale look like Shakespeare. I don't think LOST could possibly have trivialized the idea of romantic love more if they tried.


Basically, the way Romance ended up being depicted on LOST, the uglier a romance was,


the less we saw it happen,



the less sensual it was,



the more weird and shallow and gimmicky it was



- the more likely it was to end up depicted as Twu Wuv in the finale.



Sayid and Nadia's series long love story, just like Sawyer and Kate's, ended up meaning nothing. In both cases, the women were swapped out for the leggy blonde at the last second. Meanwhile, Jack and Kate, who spent the last two seasons in a deep funk of apathy towards one another were magically transformed with one last WTF into the most vapid kind of Nerd Lovers imaginable.



These writers had no intuitive sense of how to write romance, and what's more they seemed to have a strange antipathy towards the concept of passionate sexual love. It's incredible, but true, in the entire run of the whole series, there was only ONE deeply romantic, loving sex scene in the full six years.


Yes, it was one of the greatest tv love scenes ever and yes, it will be remembered long after this dreadful finale is forgotten, but still ... Only one! In six years! That's shocking. It almost makes you wonder what other issues these guys were repressing. Women were never important to these writers as anything other than babymakers and schmoopies. Sex for the most part was invisible, except when it was making women pregnant so they could die. But when it came time for the Darlton to imagine what the secret in the bowels of the Island would look like, they created a big rod. And a shiny wet hole.



I know. Ew. But don't blame me. I didn't write this shit. The ultimate denouement of this phallic fantasy was that the big hero man had to stick his rod back into the hole. Then the world was saved. And Jack was bathed in an orgasm of light.



Sheesh. These two guys should have just taken their Jack Action Figure and gotten themselves a room.



The LOST writers, of course, chose to make a love triangle central to their story from the very beginning, and to keep it there and promote it until the bitter end.



For years, we heard - from the mouths of the Darlton themselves - that Sawyer was their Han Solo. Even a Star Wars neophyte understands that Han is the romantic hero of the story. He's charismatic and sexy and adorable in all the ways that Luke is not and can never be. It's a type, an archetype, and an especially entertaining one, in my opinion.



But LOST, since it couldn't be original in any other way, decided that this well loved archetype would be the one, the only one, that would stand on its head. They de-sexed their Han Solo and made sure that he ended up getting gotz in the end of the story. There could be no romantic victory for Sawyer, just like there could be no heroic victory, because nothing could be allowed to deflect any light from the greater glory of the magnificent Jackass. Sawyer's fate, and the fate of Sawyer and Kate as a love story, was one more casualty of LOST's Revenge of the Alpha Nerds.



And here's the last saddest, most Inconvenient Truth :

LOST was never anything more than The Jack Show.

All of it was just passing time until it was time for Damon's surrogate, Jack Shephard, to win all the marbles. The only character that got any true resolution in this story was Jack. Jack became Jacob! Then he gave up being Jacob! Then he killed the bad guy! Then he saved the world! Then he died a great hero, knowing he'd saved the world! Then he won the Kate trophy! Forever! In heaven! If you ever doubted that this was The Jack Show, check it out: No one could go into Heaven until Jack got there. He was even the most important person in Heaven!



It's a very inconvenient, but unavoidable, truth that these two rich, mainstream Hollywood white guys could only envision a story that revolved around a privileged mainstream white guy like themselves. It's laughable to think back at how LOST was once considered a groundbreaking show because of its multicultural cast. As the years went by, the black people disappeared, the Asians learned to speak proper English, the Middle Eastern man became an evil beast and the females all became interchangeable schmoopies. Even the lesser white men had to take a backseat to the Great Jacksus. Locke ended up inert,



Desmond ended up not being very special after all,



and Sawyer was kept around as nothing but eye candy.



The decks had to be cleared to make sure no one, at any time, outshone the Great White Hero. Face it, even Purgatory was Jack's Wet Dream. Who besides Jack got a damn thing out of this Sideways world we're told they all allegedly created for themselves?



Claire was still the unwanted bastard stepsister who was pregnant with a baby she didn't really want. Kate was still a fugitive. Sayid still a killer. Charlie still a junky. Locke still crippled. In Jack's wet dream, Sawyer couldn't even get a woman! If nothing else, that proved that we were living in Jack's fantasy world.


But look at what Purgatory was like for King Jacksus. He was the generous kindly brother to Claire that he had never been in real life. He got both of Sawyer's women before he did, and even impregnated one! He magically cured Locke’s spine. Who needs a miraculous mystical Island when you’ve got St. Jack? Miracles were just all in a day’s work for him.



Purgatory was so custom made to make sure Jack would be comfy in his new afterlife that he even got a whole fake person tailor made for him - David.



Now, David, of course never really existed. Poor kid, I'm sure it would ruin his day to find that out. Once Jack had been convinced that he would have been the bestest daddy in all the world, David, I guess, just poofed away. Jack was done with him, he returned to the void to which all things go that Jack no longer has any need of. His only function was to help Jack work out the all important Jackiness of being Jack.



I really can’t think of any way they could have undermined their quasi-spiritual “message” any more completely than by focusing the entire endgame on the glorification of only one character. I know LOST prided itself on making pseudo-religious pudding out of all the world’s great faiths and philosophies, but I’d really like clarification on which mutant religion they drew their inspiration from for this final act. In what faith is the individual ego considered a viable path to salvation or nirvana or enlightenment? Make no mistake: this final episode was about about one person and one person only. It was about Jack fulfilling all of Jack’s dreams,



about Jack becoming the hero that Jack always wanted to be,



about Jack not being a drunk or a stalker psycho ex husband,



about Jack having the perfect son who loved him perfectly,



about Jack getting the respect from Dad that Jack always wanted,



about Jack fixing everything for everyone just like Jack always obsessed over,



and about everyone loving and wanting and waiting for Jack before any of them could start their eternal afterlives. The message wasn't "Live together or die alone". It was "die alone and wait for Jacksus to lead us into paradise."


With this predictable, but disastrous, narrative choice to focus on only one character above all the others, Lost managed to destroy the last hope that LOST could ever have been a great story with a message that was universal or transcendant. The strength of LOST had once been in the variety of its characters, in the way, that each one of them represented a slice of humanity, a slice of heroism, a slice of each of us. If there had been a truly humanist vision behind the LOST story, each of us could have seen ourselves in some incarnation within the story. We could have come away with some unifying vision of what it means to be human and to be connected to other humans. I think this is what many of us had hoped for. I know I wasn’t the only one who imagined that's what we were witnessing. This TIME Magazine article gives a great interpretation of what LOST could have been, what so many of us thought it would be, but what it sadly decided it didn't want to be:
But Lost has not a single protagonist but a huge ensemble of heroes and antiheroes with checkered pasts. The loser, the con artist, the arrogant doctor, the fugitive, the junkie: each has his or her part in the quest, which has less to do with good beating evil than determining how to be good, less to do with getting the happy ending than finding out what it means to have a happy ending. Collectively, they are — to borrow the title of Joseph Campbell's classic study of myth — the Hero with a Thousand Faces, or at least a dozen or so. It's a concept of heroism for our complicated, connected world, where problems are too complex for a single savior.



LOST's problems weren't too complex for Jack. He solved them all, all by himself. Locke tried to save everyone but only ended up giving the Monster a body to use. Desmond thought he could do it, but he couldn’t. Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, Sun, Jin, Charlie, Claire, Hurley, Ben – they may have moved the problems along, but none of them helped to solve or fix a damn thing. It was Jack, all Jack, only Jack.


The Geniuses in Chief liked to say that the show was telling them what it wanted to be about. We couldn't hear it, being mere peons of the audience, but I guess what the show was telling them was that it wanted to pretend for a really long time to be about cool, intriguing characters and ideas and mysteries ... but then at the last minute it wanted to be about Jack getting his ass kissed, his balls washed and a big fat halo super glued on to his head.


So, LOST is over. Finally. And good riddance to it. Sometimes I still find questions popping into my head. Like:



Why did Kate wear a dress into the church but then showed up inside wearing pants?



Or, if Michael said the whispers were souls trapped on the island, why was Duckett who died in Australia trapped there telling Sawyer “it would come back around”?



And like why did Hurley and Ben have to stay behind on the Island if the Smoke Monster was finally DEAD?


But then I slap myself and realize – I don’t have to think about this shit anymore! Ever! And that’s good, because finally it's safe to admit what many of us suspected, but never wanted to say: It was all bullshit.



Is there anything good to say about LOST in the wake of this debacle? Well, the music of Michael Giacchino was always stirring and emotional. The visuals of this show were magnificent. All kudos to the Art and Cinematography departments of LOST. The acting was often stellar and I hope to follow many of the actors into bigger and better careers. And of course, I’ve made some great friends, some of the smartest and wittiest people on the internet, and we made a home at Fishbiscuitland, which is staying open for business. But that’s about it. This was the kind of finale that nullifies a series, that ruins it forever, that renders any rewatch moot. And that’s not an easy thing to do. That kind of failure comes around only once every few decades. So I guess Darlton can claim that distinction. However, I really don't think they should ever show their faces at another Comic Con.



It occurs to me we still haven’t settled on an actual, literal last word. I think we know what Darlton's last word to the fans was:



But as for myself? I always enjoyed sprinkling quotes on my LOST recaps. How about this? LOST was ...


... a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Oh, well.

951 comments:

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Anonymous said...

"Well I hope you're enjoying your obviously pampered and privileged life"

Well obviously, with me being a white male and all, I have everything I could ever want and need. OBVIOUSLY.

"but I hope someday you get a clue when it comes to spousal abuse. Or abuse of any kind."

Yeah I'm just totally clueless. But don't worry I think I'll be fine because, according to you, all I have to do is watch Jack Shephard and take notes on what abuse looks like. Now I'll know what to look out for. That is, if I ever decide to leave my wonderful pampered and privileged life.

Merij said...

Did Skaters consider this a blog for Skaters-only?

I became a Skater because of Fish, but I never thought of her 'shipper POV as the defining element of this place. Her recaps were special because they were well researched, thoughtful, visually rich and funny as hell.

And because she called them like she saw them.

Her observations of Jack's foibles were dead-on hilarious, but does that mean you can't post here unless you hated Jack?

I admit that I haven't attempted to wade through the recent exchanges above, but if arguing this stuff so passionately is still energizing after all this time, then I'd say anyone with a reasonably civil tongue should be welcome. Otherwise it'd just be Kyle, SockeRock and me repeating the same old, pissed off shit to a non-responsive wall.

And it's not like Fish had a totally civil tongue, so even that is a grey area, unless you're being uncivil towards her.

MeriJ said...

Did Skaters consider this a blog for Skaters-only?

I became a Skater because of Fish, but I never thought of her 'shipper POV as the defining element of this place. Her recaps were special because they were well researched, thoughtful, visually rich and funny as hell.

And because she called them like she saw them.

Her observations of Jack's foibles were dead-on hilarious, but does that mean you can't post here unless you hated Jack?

I admit that I haven't attempted to wade through the recent exchanges above, but if arguing this stuff so passionately is still energizing after all this time, then I'd say anyone with a reasonably civil tongue should be welcome. Otherwise it'd just be Kyle, SockeRock and me repeating the same old, pissed off shit to a non-responsive wall.

And it's not like Fish had a totally civil tongue, so even that is a grey area, unless you're being uncivil towards her.

MeriJ said...

Damn. That's twice I failed to notice that a new section had started and my post was successful after all.

I never would have believed we'd get to another page of comments. That's 200 new ones since Sept 3, of which maybe 90% are Kyle, SockeRock and me whining about the same old crap. The initial 200 posts appeared the first week after the recap back in June.

That's a lot of ink regretting how a once-loved TV show ended, especially with Fish going all Jacob on us since her finale recap.

I guess I haven't moved on.

Anonymous said...

This site is clearly not Jack-friendly. If you keep coming here and getting yourself worked up into a froth because we don't think he's the best thing since sliced bread and say so, that's your fault.

And if you come on here dishing out insults and trivializing issues that are very real probelms to a lot of us (re: verbal and emotional abuse), don't expect a friendly chat in return.

MeriJ said...

I haven't read all the recent commentary, but I read a lot.

Several things are clear to me:

1. Most of these characters were seriously screwed-up human beings. Especially Jack, Kate and Sawyer, more or less in that order.

But I thought that was a huge element in the appeal of the competing 'ships: How might each pairing help these troubled people find peace?

2. Darlton absolutely did attempt to use the shipper rivalries to boost ratings, without regard for the integrity of the story arcs of the respective characters. They toyed with us. It was shameless, but hardly unusual for a long running TV show.

3. As a result, however, it doesn't make sense to say what any character "really wanted." That would imply a degree of integrity in the storytelling that proved not to be there. The characters seemed like real people for a long time, but proved to be lifeless marionnettes dancing to Darlton's clumsy whims and poll data. No wonder a few of the actors (like E. Lilly) were so pissed.

4. Nothing Darlton said was reliable. They were blowing so much smoke out their collective ass it's amazing they didn't transform into a wonderous bright light hidden in the recesses of a cave somewhere in Laurel Canyon.

Kyle from Kentucky said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brown Public Library Book Store said...

My biggest problem was not understanding how someone could serve out that pile of trash as an ending when they had the elements there for so much more. It was totally self-indulgent and a total sell-out, but there isn't going to be a reset or a do over, so it is what it is. I wasn't gone to come back here again, but the page was open on my browser on my lap top and was curious what was being said.

Now it's kind of regressing to a Jater vs Skater thing. Never was a shipper. Did like Sawyer/Kate cause they had the chemistry but after the Eggtown episode, I felt Sawyer was just too good for this fickle insert expletive. I mean, the next episode she was giving Jack the eye. Never could stand Sawyer/Juliet as those two characters made absolutely no sense being together and they had no chemistry together. The only reason Sawyer got with her because was literally all that was left, since he couldn't mess around with any out of time women.

Anyway, this is my last time here. I have no desire to ever watch another episode of Lost for the reason there's no point, as there's no resolution to anything. What they answered was full of holes and ridiculous.

Jaters may have "won" but not because your couple was the best couple, but to give Damon's boy everything to fulfill Damon's own warped fantasies through a character he apparently identified too much with. That's the way Damon wrote the show before Carlton Cuse came on board and that's how it ended.

Personally, I found the Jack/Kate pairing a very icky and boring couple, but to each his own.

MeriJ said...

In truth, I've moved on too.

But evidently not so far that anonymous posters can't trigger my spasmodic knee-jerks.

Btw that TV show I recommended, "Justified," was only great for a couple of episodes and then petered out. Too much, cuz I loved that guy in Deadwood.

Happy Holidays, everyone!

Anonymous said...

Kyle (channeling Jack...?): "But I've moved on. I've let it go. I hope the rest of you do too.

Cheers!

Anonymous said...

SockeRock says "Anyway, this is my last time here." LOL, anyone believe that?

I was curious about this guy, so I clicked on his name. He's got 2 other blogs dedicated to Lost. Thousands upon thousands of words dedicated to Lost, not including all the posts here. (Sad note, I didn't see ANY comments on any of his posts in his blogs -- tree, fall, forest...?)

Wow. Really, just wow.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Kyle channeling Jack?

Honey Jack was the last to let it go If I'm channeling anybody it would be Christian Shephard DUH

Anonymous said...

There was lots of Skate in the final season:

* Kate nursing Sawyer in the temple (with their love theme playing).
* Kate following Sawyer, leaving Jack for all she knew forever, saying to Jin of Sawyer, "we'll figure it out together".
* Sawyer feeling guilty because Juliet had chosen to die because she knew he still loved Kate (Bernard had said "We just care about being together, that's all that matters" and Sawyer had looked longingly at Kate - and then back again - which Juliet pointedly saw, then she said, "I changed my mind [about us] when I saw you look at her" and Sawyer never once said "I love you" to Juliet after that, not even when she was dying, although she said it to him repeatedly).
* Sawyer later telling Kate that he had only been with Juliet because he was afraid of being alone - and Kate understood that, right? (because she had done the same with Jack off the island and that relationship broke up because of Sawyer, just as his with Juliet broke up because of Kate).
* Kate reluctantly leaving Sawyer alone to work things out.
* Sawyer later finding Kate's dress in her cage, holding it tightly, remembering the time they had first made love/declared their love for each other.
* Right after that, Sawyer returning to Kate, approaching her deliberately, saying, with a long look, "you and me are getting the hell off this island". Kate smiling and returning the look.
* From then on Sawyer and Kate are inseparable, Kate following Sawyer everywhere right up through the end when they leave the island together, except for the one time when he went to rescue Desmond and he joked about her not being able to follow him and she laughed and said she'd have to try to resist.
* Kate following Sawyer onto the boat then staying with Sawyer after Jack jumped off.
* Kate turning to Sawyer for comfort/comforting him after Jin and Sun died, leaning on his shoulder and holding his hand.
* Sawyer protecting Kate in the cage when they were put there a second time - twice (first from a gun then from the blast).
* Sawyer in turn nursing Kate after she was wounded.
* After Kate abandons Jack (something she didn't have to do and never did to Sawyer - in a comparable scene in the cages in season 3 she got back in her cage when Sawyer told her to leave him and save herself), Sawyer led her to safety on the plane and helped her on board, and they exchanged looks on the plane, and she smiled.

By contrast, Jack and Kate virtually ignored each other for the entire season until the final minutes of the finale.

Anonymous said...

"I know my Mom felt the same way. Suliet was never on her radar, even when they were happening. She only wanted Sawyer and Kate together. BTW She never voted in any poll. :D"

There were a lot of us like that out there. :D

About Claire/Aaron, the person commenting here with all the nonsense said Sawyer had never risked his life but actually he did. In the fourth season, Sawyer braved a hail of bullets to rescue Claire and Aaron in the village, later he rescued Aaron from the jungle, and finally he jumped from the helicopter which saved both Kate and Aaron. Besides, Sawyer would have looked after Claire in the end if Kate asked him to, just like Kate had looked after Clementine when Sawyer asked her to. Kate gave Aaron to his grandmother because she believed he was better off with her. So Aaron was fine. The fact remains that Kate chose to abandon Jack and she didn't have to, nor should she have if she truly loved him. She never chose to abandon Sawyer, even when he asked her to do this save herself, because she truly loved Sawyer.

About the book, clearly they were trying to retrofit six seasons of a series to make sense of the finale (and failed). The book was poorly written/edited with many internal inconsistencies but also contradicts the transcripts and podcasts and commentary throughout the airing of the show. And yet the book says of Sawyer and Kate that their relationship was "deeper" than what Sawyer had with Juliet: "Sawyer realized that he and Kate would always be something deeper - friends, catalysts, kindred spirits - as they started anew off the island." We know from their many love scenes that Sawyer and Kate were sexually attracted to each other as well. And they were alive when the series ended. Great sex, deep love, life. Maybe they didn't intend to write a happy Skate ending, but they actually did.

Anonymous said...

"and they exchanged looks on the plane, and she smiled."

Pure delusion. This NEVER happened. Why don't you watch the scene again. Just like the rest of your post, keep on spinning.

Anonymous said...

"I think it's funny how Lost apologists are trying to claim that this show was never presented as a mystery and was in fact always about characters. To prove their claims they regularly offer some interview extracts in which the Dralton duo are trying to spin things that way..."

Agree completely. I think they made it up as they went along and kept backing themselves into corners, then threw up their hands and went with the Jack the hero/religious ending at the last minute. And used the characters they had sacrificed as an excuse.

Anonymous said...

Yes, he looked at her - there's a screencap. She looked at him - there's not a screencap but I trust you know how to pause. She smiled - there's a screencap. Minutes after abandoning Jack, Kate smiled.

Anonymous said...

"Yes, he looked at her - there's a screencap. She looked at him - there's not a screencap but I trust you know how to pause. She smiled - there's a screencap. Minutes after abandoning Jack, Kate smiled."

I'm failing to see where Kate looked at Sawyer and smiled. The only person she is smiling at in that scene is Claire.

Anonymous said...

I am failing to see what you get from coming here and trying to convince us tings on the show happened your way. If you want to know how writers thought, buy The little prince script from season 5, or I do, and you'll know what those two hacks had in mind. What surprises me is how you GOT what you wanted, but you are obviously not satisfied and happy with it so you come here... and nothing you say can change that fact. Admit to yourself that last season of Lost was a complete failure. It is that simple.
WJ

Anonymous said...

"Skate was the reason I got hooked on this show and the only romance among kindred spirits (save Des and Penny) that showed any genuine passion plus a full 6 seasons of development and ended with the two of them practically inseparable, still alive and leaving the island together."

Same here!

Anonymous said...

Jaters really didn't like the ending, did they. Twisted my words around, but clearly the smile in the plane is a sore spot. That happy smile not at Claire (who is looking out the window).

I didn't like the ending either but there was so much Skate leading up to it and they left them alive and single, so it was just a matter of time before those looks turned into getting naked.

Anonymous said...

WJ, No one is trying to convince anyone of anything. What's wrong with a little discussion/debate?

"If you want to know how writers thought, buy The little prince script from season 5, or I do, and you'll know what those two hacks had in mind"

I don't give a rat's ass what TPTB thought. I don't care what they say. They are LIARS. All I cared about is what showed up on my screen. I'm not the one who brings all their quotes/interviews into the discussion as back up for my arguments. For all the people, and there's clearly plenty posting here, that LET THEMSELVES get played by Darlton: you have ONLY yourself to blame. You should of wised up long before this show concluded, and seen that these guys were a pair of bull shiters.

"What surprises me is how you GOT what you wanted, but you are obviously not satisfied and happy with it so you come here..."

I come here and post because I'm seeing a lot of arguments and points of views about various aspects of the show, not just the show in its entirety, that I don't agree with/or understand. And I'm trying to discuss FACTS from the show to better see these points of views and understand some of these arguments. But that's not working out too well, because people around here don't like to recognize clear actual facts from the show.

"Admit to yourself that last season of Lost was a complete failure. It is that simple."

BUT it wasn't a "complete" failure. Not by a long shot. there was plenty that worked. The ending felt right to me. I wasn't upset/or felt cheated by the "long con" of the flash sideways. I liked that WHH ended up being true. I liked how some of the survivors got to leave the island. I liked that Hurley(arguably the most pure/good) got to become the island protector. And I liked what happened with the Jack character and how that story ended. But there absolutely were parts of LOST that failed (not just in the final season but the past 3+ seasons). That didn't even come close to working. The show was very sloppy at times. They neglected characters for too long of stretches. There were a number of dropped story lines that just vanished. The show failed to explain the mythology in greater detail. There are a bunch of other little things that bugged me but the show as a whole and the final season was far far more positive than negative.

Anonymous said...

"That happy smile not at Claire"

Oh you mean that happy smile AT Sawyer. Oh I got you. I figured out what my problem was. I was watching the wrong channel. I had to turn it to imaginary LOST and I instantly saw what you were saying. Kate clearly turned to Sawyer, looked at him and smiled.

Anonymous said...

The sequence of shots that were edited together follow: Kate looks at Sawyer, Sawyer looks at Kate, Kate smiles (looking forward), plane taxis down runway, Kate takes Claire's hand, plane takes off, Kate smiles (looking forward), Miles smiles, Kate smiles (looking forward), Kate looks at Claire, Kate smiles (looking at Claire), ...

The original statement (that was misquoted) is correct: "they exchanged looks on the plane, and she smiled".

Jack STALKED his wife, SCREAMED at her demanding to know the other man's name, ASSAULTED his own father out of jealousy for something Christian didn't even do, STALKED and PHYSICALLY INTIMIDATED Achara to force her to mark him, etc. On top of that Jack tried to CONTROL Kate, demanding to know whe she was talking to and seeing and wouldn't trust her, he SHOUTED at her in front of her child, BERATED her, threw her past in her face to SHAME her and put her in her place, and USED women to gratify his need for affirmation. Every single woman he got involved with was All About Jack. He kissed Gabriella because he needed affirmation after not being able to fix her father, kissed Juliet to prove something to himself. He wanted to bask in the glow of women's admiration and Hero-worship and didn't like it when he wasn't the center of their attention (hence him refusing to have anything to do with Aaron and going ballistic with Kate because she kept her promise to Sawyer).

You want to make excuses for Jack's behavior, but it's not excusable. It's explainable - for a guy who was damaged and refused to get help, but that doesn't justify what he did.

Jack was a sick pup and needed help which he refused to get. He thought he had to fix everything to prove that he had what it takes to his father, but the person who needed fixing the most was Jack himself.


Bravo!

Anonymous said...

Full quote was a list of things that happened after Kate abandoned Jack:

After Kate abandons Jack,

Sawyer led her to safety on the plane and helped her on board,

and they exchanged looks on the plane,

and she smiled.


So Sawyer fulfilled his promise to Kate when he said, "You and me are getting the hell off this island."

Anonymous said...

"The sequence of shots that were edited together follow: Kate looks at Sawyer, Sawyer looks at Kate,"

Yes this is clear. There is a shot of Kate glancing back and then a shot of Sawyer looking in that direction. BUT This next "shot" I don't agree with:

"Kate smiles (looking forward)"

The very next shot is an almost side shot of Kate (NOT smiling) and then panning over Claire looking out the window. Kate doesn't crack a smile until after the plane is off the ground.

Anonymous said...

Jaters can't handle that Darlton made the following happen:

1) Killed Juliet so Sawyer was free again (and his balls were free too)

2) Gave Sawyer and Kate a bunch of scenes together all season wanting to "figure it out together" and fondling dresses and plotting to "get the hell off this island" together and holding hands when Jack was right there (oh, and had that damn song Romancing The Cage play while Kate stroked Sawyer's face and while Sawyer fondled Kate's dress)

3) Had Kate choose to leave Jack

4) With Sawyer

5) Who saved Kate and Claire once again (what do we do now Sawyer, we jump, you'd better wait for us Lapidus, holding her up while she's running after tending to her wound, getting them onto the plane)

6) Had Kate SMILE ON THE PLANE REPEATEDLY after leaving Jack

7) Killed Jack

So in the end, Sawyer and Kate were alive and together, and the story that led up to this end had Kate stroking Sawyer face and Sawyer fondling Kate's dress while Romancing The Cage played, so it's not a stretch to conclude this led to stroking and fondling other things when they got home.

And all Jack got was to star in a widely panned and dismissed religious fantasy sequence that most viewers concluded was all in his head, because that's the only way it made a bit of sense.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Merry Christmas Fish!

Anonymous said...

I haven't read any of the most recent posts before the post I quoted below, so apologies if the points have been similarly argued previously.

"Oh poor Kate. He was shouting at her. Again, NORMAL people Raise their voices in the heat of the moment, from time to time. There's nothing wrong with that."

Actually, there is. Yelling at someone from time to time does not mean it's excusable. And repeatedly yelling at someone and finding fault with that person is paramount to being abusive.

"Yeah, your right. Jack was so damn mean to her. Its not like she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him. Oh wait she did."

She didn't in the end though. Unless you're counting wanting to spend the rest of her death with him, in Jack's post-mortem mind.

"Did we not see Jack reading to Aaron?""

Brownie points for Jack then. The only thing we saw him doing for the child.

"Nothing is excusable when Jack is involved. I'm not saying Jack was always in the right. He had issues. He exuded some questionable behavior. No doubt. But you keep harping on these same points(followed Sarah, Yells, argument with Kate) while trying to paint this character as a woman abuser. Like men and women don't get into arguments. That NEVER happens in a relationship? Significant others don't check up on their suspicious/cheating partners? That never happens in a real relationship? Comparing him to Wayne. The real woman abuser/wife beater when Jack has NEVER harmed a woman like that. Nor have we seen him get close to attempting to harm a women. Not even close. And your comparing him to a guy that hits his wife. That's ridiculous to me. Your way way to hard on the character."

I still can't get over that there are people out there who think this. Why is it that you think abusive behavior constitutes physical abuse only and you think nothing of emotional abuse, which is often as damaging or more damaging than physical assault? The points you see "harped on about" are exactly what amounts to abuse. Of course men and women argue, but constantly criticizing, putting someone down and repeatedly yelling at someone does not equal healthy arguing. Your point about significant others checking up on a suspected cheating partner happens I'm sure, but again this does not equal a healthy relationship. NO trust and reason to be suspicious in the first place are never ever ingredients for happily ever after.

The reason why "nothing is excusable when Jack is involved" is because his character's type of behavior is never excusable.

Hope Fish and her readers here had a good Christmas and I wish everyone a happy new year!

MeriJ said...

Jack did carry a lot of anger, frustration and self-doubt. He acted irresponsibly in marrying that first woman for reasons that appear to have been more about his own demons than true love for another.

But I wouldn’t have categorized him as an abusive person, in the sense of that being one of his primary or even secondary patterns.

When writers highlight a few over the top moments from a person’s life you sometimes get a skewed sense of who they were. If these angry scenes were illustrative of many other such moments of anger, then maybe he was an abusive guy.

But that’s not the sense I got. I thought the island was working on him from an early age to drive him to his so-called destiny there. We saw him lose it during two failed relationships, a dysfunctional father-son dynamic and whatever head trip was going on with that back story about the tattoo on his arm. (I guess the point of that story was to show he was destined to be a lonely hero? Whatever, dude.)

It seems like drivel now that I’ve become disillusioned with the writers. But as written, I do believe Jack was manipulated to meet the island’s needs. His self-destructive behavior after going back to LA was almost certainly a result of this.

Not saying it excuses anything…

Anonymous said...

"I still can't get over that there are people out there who think this. Why is it that you think abusive behavior constitutes physical abuse only and you think nothing of emotional abuse, which is often as damaging or more damaging than physical assault?"

I fully understand how damaging emotional abuse can be. And I agree it IS far more damaging than a physical assault. I just don't agree that the Jack character was a man that was emotionally abusive. You can't just cherry pick four moments from this character's story and lump them together as your proof. These moments that keep being brought up are all single instances/events within different/completely separate relationships. Jack following Sarah trying to find out who the other man was. Jack accusing his father and getting into a fight with him. And Jack yelling at Kate in 4x10. Before his fallout with Sarah, was he a mean/nasty prick to her? NO. With Jack/Christian, that relationship was strained from the get go, did he ever get that crazy with his father before/after that fight at the AA meeting? NO.

"The points you see "harped on about" are exactly what amounts to abuse. Of course men and women argue, but constantly criticizing, putting someone down and repeatedly yelling at someone does not equal healthy arguing."

With Jack and Kate you can't use words like "constantly" and "repeatedly" while discussing their relationship. Especially since the evidence being used against Jack here is the argument in 4x10. This ONE scene. This SINGLE moment. This lone outburst from Jack makes him an emotionally abusive partner? He loses his cool, with Kate, ONCE and that's IT. He's an emotional abuser? Even though we don't see Jack act this way toward Kate before or after this SINGLE moment from their relationship. I think that's unfair. To me, It all sounds like Jack haters looking/grasping for excuses to hate on the character.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

*SPOILER ALERT* Jack was one of the most boring characters on the entire show

MeriJ said...

So true. And there were many characters, so that's saying a lot.

I resolve in 2011 not to respond to discussions about Jack Shepherd, however ridiculous or one-sided they may be. Not a monster, but also not worth the time.

Anonymous said...

^to the jater with a selective memory who posts here. When I think about Jate and their abusive and failed relationship, I don't concetrate on that one scene from 4x10, I think about all the times Jack forced Kate to do or say something she didn't want on the Island, I think about how she left him to die alone with a dog while the fat guy showed more love for the man... :
"Tell me! Tell me!It belonged to the man I killed..." "You can't come!... repeat x16" "What did they do to YOU?... They're going to kill Sawyer!" "We are together but we AREN'T together!" "I hope you find what you are looking for..." "Sawyer, we jump!"
Jate off island was exactly what I expected them to be. I knew they were going to show them together, and I knew it was going to be rushed and abusive and wrong, 4X10 showed exactly THAT. Then Skate should have followed. Unfortunately for common sense people but fortunately for Jaters, an online army of fanboys and geeks who haven't touched a real woman two times in their lives, embraced the mockery that was Suliet with their arms wide open, and so came the forced Jate ending in the finale. When you read the script for The Little Prince (5x4); The scene where Sawyer sees Kate delivering Aaron, or the script for the fan adored 5x8 LaFleur, where Holloway and Lilly have to portray all those feelings coming back (which Holloway did much better than the latter) or 5x11-Whatever Happened happened- Where Jack openly says to Kate that she never liked him, old version or new, something that was absolutely true. She liked the image that she had in her head, Jack the Saint like her military daddy. Not to mention all the Skate implications that that episode delivered.
In few short sentences this is what happened.

Fanboys have won the shipper war for Jaters with their illogical Suliet love and Kate hate, while ironically they have lost on every other front. They got screwed the most with Damon and Carlton's total lack of creativity and no amount of Suliet shittery could atone for that. Also, it is no wonder that you Jaters come here and write about your sad pairing because you can't really be satisfied with what you got. You can't. I feel for you. A failed and abusive relationship that lasted for one whole episode, a kiss given to a dying man and then the girl leaves him to die alone, a creepy version of afterlife where I guess they ended up together(???)(Jack's version of afterlife in that "place you created together", because otherwise it doesn't make sense, I think each character had a different awakening fest of chuckecheesery), and I'll give you first six episodes of s1 where there was some awkward Jate in the making, but was soon forgotten after The Confidence Man kiss. So yeah, you can't really be happy and satisfied with what you got, so I get your need to convince yourself that it was all peaches and cream by coming to places like this where fans rightfully bash that idiocy of finale that nullified otherwise a good tv show (great for 4 seasons). But it can't be peaches and cream, because what everyone got was absolute shit and even you know that, anyone with a grain of salt in their head realizes that, and it's not just Jate, I could live with them if it weren't for everything else that was nothing but donkey crap. :(


p.s. Happy New Year!!! All the best to everyone!!! (even Jaters, hope you learn better next time ;))

WJ

Anonymous said...

"^to the jater with a selective memory"

Pot, meet kettle.

"When I think about Jate and their abusive and failed relationship, I don't concetrate on that one scene from 4x10, I think about all the times Jack forced Kate to do or say something she didn't want on the Island,"

"Tell me! Tell me!It belonged to the man I killed..."

He wasn't being mean or nasty. All he wanted was the truth. Is THAT so much to ask for? If it wasn't for him, she would of NEVER gotten her hands on that toy plane. He got the case from Sawyer. He dug up the rotting corpse FOR her. And even after she tried to sneak the key in front of him, he STILL opened the case WITH her. At least Jack challenged this woman. Talk about abuse FFS! He didn't let Kate use him. Unlike that pussy Sawyer who let Kate walk ALL over his ass.

"You can't come!... repeat x16"

Trying to protect her.

"What did they do to YOU?... They're going to kill Sawyer!"

??? Is this from the glass wall scene? right before Jack basically saved her ass and Sawyer's.

"We are together but we AREN'T together!"

You making up your own quotes now? Where is this from?

"I hope you find what you are looking for..."

Whats the negative spin your trying to point out with this one? I don't get it. You could even argue that Kate is hoping that Jack finds whatever he thinks is calling him because she wants him to come back to her when he's done. Whats the negative???

"Sawyer, we jump!"

Again whats your point with this one?

These are the examples of "all the times" Jack "forced" Kate into something she didn't want? This is what you choose to argue with? What a Joke.

"I think about how she left him to die alone with a dog while the fat guy showed more love for the man... :"

OR you could think about how she left him for a good purpose. A very noble reason like reuniting a mother and her child. And did you see "the fat guy" kiss Jack and tell him ILY or was that Kate? Selective memory?

Anonymous said...

"I knew they were going to show them together, and I knew it was going to be rushed and abusive and wrong, 4X10 showed exactly THAT."

Oh, you knew did ya? "rushed" What? you wanted to see their first date? "abusive" Same old same old. Jack yells at Kate in ONE SINGLE scene and its an abusive relationship? "wrong" If it was soo wrong than why did the center of this mysterious triangle, Kate, agree to Jack's proposal so quickly and with such conviction?

"Then Skate should have followed."

OF COURSE! Kate should of ditched the guy she just agreed to marry and should of ran back to Sawyer's arms, the guy she didn't even attempt to look for for 3 years.

"Unfortunately for common sense people but fortunately for Jaters, an online army of fanboys and geeks who haven't touched a real woman two times in their lives, embraced the mockery that was Suliet with their arms wide open, and so came the forced Jate ending in the finale."

Hey, what ever you and all the other "common sense" people need to tell themselves.

"When you read the script for The Little Prince (5x4); The scene where Sawyer sees Kate delivering Aaron, or the script for the fan adored 5x8 LaFleur, where Holloway and Lilly have to portray all those feelings coming back "

I don't look at the scripts. Those don't matter. What matters is what we WATCH on the screen. And both these examples are from Sawyer's POV. They are centering on his feelings. When your arguing about who KATE should of ended up with, you should be using scenes that center on HER feelings for your arguments.

"5x11-Whatever Happened happened- Where Jack openly says to Kate that she never liked him, old version or new, something that was absolutely true."

This is what JACK was thinking. Jack's POV. What about KATE? Did Kate confirm his theory? NO. She didn't say shit and then she walked out pissed. So how is it "absolutely true" when actions/dialogue over the series, from Kate, show otherwise?

"She liked the image that she had in her head, Jack the Saint like her military daddy."

When did Kate compare Jack with her dad? NEVER

"Not to mention all the Skate implications that that episode delivered."

More like the Skate retcons.

Anonymous said...

"A failed and abusive relationship that lasted for one whole episode"

More than Skate ever got.

"a kiss given to a dying man and then the girl leaves him to die alone, a creepy version of afterlife where I guess they ended up together(???)"

A kiss, an ILY, a sacrifice from Sawyer, and reconnection in the sideways. HYPOCRITE. This is the kind of scenario that you and the rest of the skaters were praying for before the series finale. GTFOH!


"(Jack's version of afterlife in that "place you created together", because otherwise it doesn't make sense, I think each character had a different awakening fest of chuckecheesery)"

Keep on neglecting the canon. Whatever makes it hurt less.

"I'll give you first six episodes of s1 where there was some awkward Jate in the making, but was soon forgotten after The Confidence Man kiss."

The Sawyer/Kate extorted kiss wipes out the connection Jack/Kate formed in the beginning episodes of the series?

"But it can't be peaches and cream, because what everyone got was absolute shit and even you know that, anyone with a grain of salt in their head realizes that, and it's not just Jate, I could live with them if it weren't for everything else that was nothing but donkey crap. :("

Don't mistake my defending of Jate/Jack as defending LOST as a whole. Jate was one of the aspects I personally was pleased with. The tragic ending to that story worked for me. With this show there were parts I thought were well and parts I thought just didn't work at all. I wouldn't say "absolute shit". There was stuff I took issue with, over the series/finale, and wish they would of done differently for sure. BUT, with LOST, the good far far out weighs the bad. At least IMO.

Anonymous said...

“With Jack and Kate you can't use words like "constantly" and "repeatedly" while discussing their relationship. Especially since the evidence being used against Jack here is the argument in 4x10. This ONE scene. This SINGLE moment. This lone outburst from Jack makes him an emotionally abusive partner? He loses his cool, with Kate, ONCE and that's IT."

Definitely more than once. Your memory is selective. The above poster is correct, the S4, Ep 10 scene is most certainly not the only one that I based my argument on. There are plenty of other examples when Jack couldn't keep his temper at bay. Or when his actions did not signify a love for Kate. Remember Jack screaming at Kate in the glass wall scene in I Do? And Whatever the Case May Be? Blaming her that he didn't get to go home on the sub; his cold treatment of her in the piano room and the way he spoke to her when Kate was in handcuffs in the snooker room? And as for his control freakiness, how is that normal mental behavior? Regularly deciding what's best for someone without knowing what that person thinks is best is not ok. Jack was doing this as far back as his decision for Kate to move to the caves, when she didn't want to go there.

You say that a few occasions of this type of bad behavior does not make Jack an emotional abuser, but I'd need a lot more to be convinced. Because at what point does repetitive rage and condescension become abuse? Any educational site on this subject always includes a history of abuse and there's certainly no doubt that in the past Jack stalked Sarah and manhandled Achara. Facts. Not in any way an example of normal behavior and definitely not to be dismissed if there's a question of abusive tendencies in the future. It doesn't matter if it was a single instance at that time because at this stage, it's a history for the character. Since you're probably determined to defend Jack, I'm sure I won't be changing your opinion but even if you don't think Jack displays any tendency towards abuse, how do you at least think any of the above behavior is an example of love? It's beyond me.

Cont'd...

Anonymous said...

“??? Is this from the glass wall scene? right before Jack basically saved her ass and Sawyer's.”

You’re missing the point. Nothing excuses Jack’s yelling at Kate and causing the distress he showed her in that scene.

“And did you see "the fat guy" kiss Jack and tell him ILY or was that Kate?”

I’m not the original poster you’re responding to but I want to respond to this anyway because I don’t see anyone here denying that Kate chose Jack in the end. The problem with it is that the story never built up a love story for Jate, but since everything had to be for Jack in the end, Kate had to be too. Didn’t matter that the storytelling showed more examples of Kate loving Sawyer and Sawyer loving Kate than the combined Jate/Suliet relationships. None of the characters mattered in the end bar Jack.

“A kiss, an ILY, a sacrifice from Sawyer, and reconnection in the sideways. HYPOCRITE. This is the kind of scenario that you and the rest of the skaters were praying for before the series finale.”

Reconnection in the sideways = Jack’s fantasy in death. No Skater wanted that for Skate since it comes from a one-sided desire from a character that isn’t even alive. Again, Kate didn’t matter except for Jack to have her there to keep him happy. None of the characters mattered except for Jack in the “sideways”. Since Jaters were all about Jack, why are you getting so annoyed about it then? Other opinions shouldn’t matter to you, but clearly it pisses you off that few people agree with your opinion, non-Skaters included.

Anonymous said...

"Remember Jack screaming at Kate in the glass wall scene in I Do?"

This counts as screaming? How is he abusing her emotionally here? Because he raised his voice and wanted to know what was going on? I understand the argument of the scene from 4x10 being emotionally abusive moment where Jack clearly picks a fight with her, yells at her, diminishes Sawyer's sacrifice, calls out her connection to Aaron and all that. I get that claim. But I'm failing to understand the claim from this scene. WHAT EXACTLY is Jack doing to her emotionally here? The abuse can't just be because he's "screaming" at her. How did Jack HURT HER? Jack is being held captive and in walks Kate telling him he HAS to do what Ben says. Jack isn't allowed to be suspicious and aggravated with this situation? When its clear to him that Kate is being used and lied to by Ben?

"And Whatever the Case May Be?"

I went over this in an above post. Why isn't Jack entitled to the truth? After everything Kate had him do just so she could get her hands on that toy. He wasn't being mean/nasty with her. He was simply asking for the truth. Kate got emotionally upset because of what the toy meant to her. NOT because of what Jack was doing.

"Blaming her that he didn't get to go home on the sub"

What episode? I don't remember this?

"his cold treatment of her in the piano room"

First he told her to leave because he didn't want her to get captured. Then once she was captured what was he supposed to do for her? He told her to answer their questions because he didn't want them to hurt her. Again, trying to protect is translated to "cold". whatever. to each his/her own I guess.

"and the way he spoke to her when Kate was in handcuffs in the snooker room?"

What did Jack DO TO HER in this scene? How did he abuse her? He was calm the entire time. He revealed his plan to her of leaving on the sub and bringing back help. And he specifically told Kate he would come back for her. What was the emotional abuse you took away from this scene. I'm not seeing it.

None of these examples, IMO, are comparable to the 4x10 scene. There under completely different circumstances and Jack doesn't come close to the level of "abuse" he showcased in that SINGLE MOMENT from the 4x10 fight.

"You say that a few occasions of this type of bad behavior does not make Jack an emotional abuser, but I'd need a lot more to be convinced."

As of right now the ONLY scene in which I see Jack abuse Kate emotionally is from 4x10. That's the ONLY one. I don't agree with all these other interpretations from these examples you brought. So Like you, I 'd need a lot more to be convinced.

Anonymous said...

"You’re missing the point. Nothing excuses Jack’s yelling at Kate and causing the distress he showed her in that scene."

Was it Jack causing the distress OR was it the others and the situation they put these characters in? Was Kate upset over the fact that Jack raised his voice to her OR the fact that Sawyer was in serious trouble?

"Didn’t matter that the storytelling showed more examples of Kate loving Sawyer . . ."

Really???. over the course of the series Kate SHOWED more emotion/feeling/love for Sawyer? Like when she showed up in his tent crying over Jack? The canon doesn't agree with your claim. Kate was an ambiguous character , yes. BUT she did clearly show/express her feelings and emotions from time to time. The Jack character was the one who received the majority of those moments with Kate NOT Sawyer.

"Reconnection in the sideways = Jack’s fantasy in death. No Skater wanted that for Skate since it comes from a one-sided desire from a character that isn’t even alive."

HYPOCRITE! Don't act like you don't give a damn now after the fact. Because at the time, before the series finale, YOU were praying for a Sawyer/Kate flash moment in the sideways.

"Since Jaters were all about Jack,"

Skaters were ALL about Sawyer. At least I can bring solid arguments for Jate based on the KATE character and her role in the relationship.

Par said...

"Skaters were ALL about Sawyer. At least I can bring solid arguments for Jate based on the KATE character and her role in the relationship."

Plenty of Kate fans were all about Kate although I'm not one of them.

In short, I disliked Jate and Suliet immensely because they required Kate and Sawyer to become "tamed" versions of themselves.

Sawyer and Kate learning to love each other for who they were (a complicated mess of both good and bad) is how I wanted the show to end.

Sadly, it ended with two selfish people, namely Juliet and Jack, getting what they wanted despite having gotten and wasted their chance. Sawyer and Kate didn't matter.

WJ, I really enjoy your posts.

I'm not stuck on Lost. I just come here because Skaters have deserted all Lost forums ages ago.

Anonymous said...

"Sadly, it ended with two selfish people, namely Juliet and Jack, getting what they wanted despite having gotten and wasted their chance. Sawyer and Kate didn't matter."

How was Jack the selfish one? He let go of Kate. He chose to go through with the jughead plan which was supposed to result in the erasing of their memories. Even though all he truly wanted for himself was Kate. He chose to stay on the island and become the new Jacob. And instead of leaving with the woman he just said ILY to, he walks away from her to go fix the island. How is that selfish? You think that's what Jack truly wanted for himself? To die on the jungle floor instead of a life with Kate? He did what he did in the finale because he HAD to BUT that doesn't mean he wanted it to end that way. Jack had the choice. He UNselfishly chose to do what was best for everyone/island over being with Kate. That's the opposite of selfish. I guess to you, Sawyer and Kate never got their chance? They had 3+ seasons of a chance and it didn't work.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Good god it just gets worse and worse on here.

I figured fishbiscuitland would be the perfect place to tell this story.

My little cousin was born on 9/20/2005 which is almost exactly a year after the pilot episode of LOST aired. So this past fall he started his first full year of school - preschool. So I was talking to him at our family christmas party and he told me his best friend's name is Sawyer. So I was like Sawyer wtf then I talked to his mother and she said yes the boys parents named him after a LOST character. His real name is James Sawyer _______ idk last name but its not Ford.

So this kids 5 too. I thought that was pretty cool of course that name was given after season 1 when Sawyer of LOST was still a wonderful character.

Par said...

Anonymous, I was referring the season 5 finale selfishness when both Jack and Juliet acted like two dicks just because they realized that Sawyer and Kate didn't love them the way they wanted to (although they did love them), and that they (Sawyer and Kate) still had lingering feelings for each other.

It was selfish to make them feel like crap because of that and make the bomb explode to make themselves feel better.

But I'm talking about the writers' perspective here. The fact that they changed their plans when they started writing season 6 based on ABC polls they thought were representative of all Lost audience, doesn't change things for me.

Season 6 was the time of some serious retconning and rewriting. Glad you liked it, but I found it absolutely disgusting, especially when it comes to Suliet.

Anonymous said...

"But I'm talking about the writers' perspective here. The fact that they changed their plans when they started writing season 6 based on ABC polls they thought were representative of all Lost audience, doesn't change things for me."

"The fact that" LOL! This is your joke of a THEORY. Like YOU just knew how season 6 was SUPPOSED to play out. Right? This is such a ridiculous thought process. You ACTUALLY believe TPTB relied on internet polls, representation of a small fraction of the fan base, to decide the course of action for the final season of a 6 year running TV show that averaged 10 million viewers/episode. And you think they looked at a few thousand votes on a web site and as a result trashed their original plans? Whatever you need to tell yourself to make it hurt less.

Anonymous said...

Having re-read this after many long months away from LOST, it really still holds water very well. The last season was one big belly flop.

I'd still like to slap those two boobs with a giant fish if I ever saw them.

As for the banter on here that's continuing so heatedly...it really is time to let go. We're not going to get a new alt-ending no matter how much it is deserved, no movies, nothing. Cuse & Lindelof checked out mentally 2 years ago and have moved on to whatever they're doing next in every sense.

My only payback at this point is to refuse to see one second of any of it, ever. JJ Abrams' name was sullied by this whole mess, and thusly down the toilet "Undercovers" went...though it sucked anyway...few want to watch anything to do with the trio of Cuse, Lindelof, Abrams.

Fringe has since reawakened to sort-of fill the void...V may do the same. As for Hawaii 5-0 and watching Jin in something else...BZZZZT...not gonna happen.

I wish more could be said here by Fish...as a follow-up, but I doubt that's gonna happen either.

I'm done with LOST officially now, having stopped posting on all blogs I have been a part of. I waited for Doc Jensen's Part 3 review, even though it was a big steamy pile...he kept promising it...failure to deliver. What an ass-bite.

At this point, I'd hope some fan fiction springs up, much like it did with Back to the Future. Some of that was quite good and enhanced the story (see Mary Jean Holmes versions).

Keep moving forward.....

Anonymous said...

LOL!

Which is it??? "My only payback at this point is to refuse to see one second of any of it, ever"

or... are you hoping for fan fiction so that you can keep Lost alive?

Time to let go? You mean, even after Jack was the last one to let go...?

Christine (faraday's constant) said...

I've basically followed LOST since I was fourteen. This was my favorite show in the history of shows. I actually liked the finale, a LOT, despite being indifferent to Jack and wanting answers. I've actually really liked reading your reviews, as Skated up as they were. (I'm not a Jater for the record, the shipper wars meant nothing to me really). I was actually really disappointed that you stopped writing. But I do have a few problems with this review, which I want to address even though I'm like a year late.

My problems with this review have nothing to do with the actual opinions, by all means, shit on the show all you want. That's your opinion, and far be it from me to say anything about that. My issues stem from the fact that even though you go on about Darlton shitting on us as fans, you proceeded to shit on the fans that disagreed with your point of view. I wasn't a Skater, I loved Charlie/Claire, and Daniel/Charlotte. My love for the characters had almost nothing to do with the mains (Jack, Kate Sawyer, those guys) and everything to do with the supporting characters (Charlie, Faraday, Miles, Charlotte, Claire, ect.) Just because they weren't the long drawn out and sometimes completely annoying love triangle didn't mean they were any less important. The whole part where you just went in on the peripheral shippers was a bit much. To be perfectly honest, I was far more moved by Richard's story with Isabella than I was with the Skate debacle. I liked reading your reviews when they didn't hit me over the head with Skate and how wonderful that ship was. Because that shipper had issues the same way Jate did. He screwed her out of a spot on the raft, he played her like a fiddle to get all the guns, among other things. Kate wasn't good with either of them, and that's why the shipper triangle meant nothing to me. Her relationship with Claire was what redeemed the girl in the end.

I don't know if I'm repeating stuff said in the comments but honestly I don't think just one episode can ruin six years of show watching. Personally, I've been watching the show since I was fourteen, I did a term paper on it my first year in college, season 6 was a huge comfort to me during my sorority pledging process, and The End was almost a reward after all that because I watched it as a sister, but I boycotted the first half of season 4 because I was so upset that Charlie died. But just because he died it didn't mean that the show was suddenly terrible. I had to let the story tell itself. And so what if we all got long conned in the end? Nobody who really loved this show could say that it wasn't a hell of a ride watching, even if the ending wasn't something everybody could get on board with.

Then again, that's just me.

Also, I kept asking this on DocArzt when commenting was activated: what in the world is a fanboy? My LOST experience, save season 6 when I would go on DocArzt, wasn't online. I kept asking but no one would answer, and now I have a sneaking suspicion that a fanboy is an insulting term for someone who doesn't agree with your point of view, no offense. I hope not, but still.

RSSing your blog though, because I still love your reviews and I'm about to read them over. :D

Christine (faraday's constant) said...

I've basically followed LOST since I was fourteen. This was my favorite show in the history of shows. I actually liked the finale, a LOT, despite beingindifferent to Jack and wanting answers. I've actually really liked reading your reviews, as Skated up as they were. (I'm not a Jater for the record, the shipper wars meant nothing to me really). I was actually really disappointed that you stopped writing. But I do have a few problems with this review, which I want to address even though I'm like a year late.

My problems with this review have nothing to do with the actual opinions, by all means, shit on the show all you want. That's your opinion, and far be it from me to say anything about that. My issues stem from the fact that even though you go on about Darlton shitting on us as fans, you proceeded to shit on the fans that disagreed with your point of view. I wasn't a Skater, I loved Charlie/Claire, and Daniel/Charlotte. My love for the characters had almost nothing to do with the mains (Jack, Kate Sawyer, those guys) and everything to do with the supporting characters (Charlie, Faraday, Miles, Charlotte, Claire, ect.) Just because they weren't the long drawn out and sometimes completely annoying love triangle didn't mean they were any less important. The whole part where you just went in on the peripheral shippers was a bit much. To be perfectly honest, I was far more moved by Richard's story with Isabella than I was with the Skate debacle. I liked reading your reviews when they didn't hit me over the head with Skate and how wonderful that ship was. Because that shipper had issues the same way Jate did. He screwed her out of a spot on the raft, he played her like a fiddle to get all the guns, among other things.

I don't know if I'm repeating stuff said in the comments but honestly I don't think just one episode can ruin six years of show watching. Personally, I've been watching the show since I was fourteen, I did a term paper on it my first year in college, season 6 was a huge comfort to me during my sorority pledging process, and The End was almost a reward after all that because I watched it as a sister, but I boycotted the first half of season 4 because I was so upset that Charlie died. But just because he died it didn't mean that the show was suddenly terrible. I had to let the story tell itself. And so what if we all got long conned in the end? Nobody who really loved this show could say that it wasn't a hell of a ride watching, even if the ending wasn't something everybody could get on board with.

Also, I kept asking this on DocArzt when commenting was activated: what in the world is a fanboy? My LOST experience, save season 6 when I would go on DocArzt, wasn't online. I kept asking but no one would answer, and now I have a sneaking suspicion that a fanboy is an insulting term for someone who doesn't agree with your point of view, no offense. I hope not, but still.

RSSing your blog though, because I still love your reviews and I'm about to read them over. :D

Christine (faraday's constant) said...

IThis was my favorite show in the history of shows. I actually liked the finale, a LOT, despite being indifferent to Jack and wanting answers as much as the next person. I've actually really liked reading your reviews, as Skated up as they were. I was actually really disappointed that you stopped writing. But I do have a few problems with this review, which I want to address even though I'm like a year late.

My problems with this review have nothing to do with the actual opinions, that's your opinion, and far be it from me to say anything about that. My issues stem from the fact that even though you go on about Darlton shitting on us as fans, you proceeded to shit on the fans that disagreed with your point of view. My love for the characters and the show had almost nothing to do with the mains (Jack, Kate Sawyer, those guys) and everything to do with the supporting characters (Charlie, Faraday, Miles, Charlotte, Claire, ect.) Just because they weren't the long drawn out and sometimes completely annoying love triangle didn't mean they were any less important. The whole part where you just went in on the peripheral shippers was a bit much. To be perfectly honest, I was far more moved by Richard's story with Isabella than I was with the Skate debacle.

I don't know if I'm repeating stuff said in the comments but honestly I don't think just one episode can ruin six years of show watching. Personally, I've been watching the show since I was fourteen, I did a term paper on it my first year in college, season 6 was a huge comfort to me during my sorority pledging process, and The End was almost a reward after all that because I watched it as a sister, but I boycotted the first half of season 4 because I was so upset that Charlie died. But just because he died it didn't mean that the show was suddenly terrible. I had to let the story tell itself. And so what if we all got long conned in the end? Nobody who really loved this show could say that it wasn't a hell of a ride watching, even if the ending wasn't something everybody could get on board with.

Also, I kept asking this on DocArzt when commenting was activated: what in the world is a fanboy? My LOST experience, save season 6 when I would go on DocArzt, wasn't online. I kept asking but no one would answer, and now I have a sneaking suspicion that a fanboy is an insulting term for someone who doesn't agree with your point of view, no offense. I hope not, but still.

RSSing your blog though, because I still love your reviews and I'm about to read them over. :D

Christine (faraday's constant) said...

I actually liked the finale, a LOT, despite being indifferent to Jack and wanting answers as much as the next person. I've actually really liked reading your reviews, as Skated up as they were. I was actually really disappointed that you stopped writing.

However, my problems with this review have nothing to do with the actual opinions, that's your opinion, and far be it from me to say anything about that. My issues stem from the fact that even though you go on about Darlton shitting on us as fans, you proceeded to shit on the fans that disagreed with your point of view. My love for the characters and the show had almost nothing to do with the mains (Jack, Kate Sawyer, those guys) and everything to do with the supporting characters (Charlie, Faraday, Miles, Charlotte, Claire, ect.) Just because they weren't the long drawn out and sometimes completely annoying love triangle didn't mean they were any less important. The whole part where you just went in on the peripheral shippers was a bit much. To be perfectly honest, I was far more moved by Richard's story with Isabella than I was with the Skate debacle.

I don't know if I'm repeating stuff said in the comments but honestly I don't think just one episode can ruin six years of show watching. Personally, I've been watching the show since I was fourteen, I did a term paper on it my first year in college, but I boycotted the first half of season 4 because I was so upset that Charlie died. But just because he died it didn't mean that the show was suddenly terrible. I had to let the story tell itself. And so what if we all got long conned in the end? Nobody who really loved this show could say that it wasn't a hell of a ride watching, even if the ending wasn't something everybody could get on board with.

Also, I kept asking this on DocArzt when commenting was activated: what in the world is a fanboy? My LOST experience, save season 6 when I would go on DocArzt, wasn't online. I kept asking but no one would answer, and now I have a sneaking suspicion that a fanboy is an insulting term for someone who doesn't agree with your point of view, no offense. I hope not, but still.

RSSing your blog though, because I still love your reviews and I'm about to read them over. :D

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I'm sorry to say this Christine but when you said:

I wasn't a Skater, I loved Daniel/Charlotte.

....thats really all i needed to read.

MeriJ said...

Christine,

I too was new to the term fanboy. But apparently it's a well established phrase outside of Lost.

The image is that of a teenage boy who fanatically loyal to a video game, TV show, fantasy game, comic or whatever and socially graceless in expressing his loyalty. I'm sure there are broader definitions, but that's the essence of it.

So someone blindly loyal to Darlton and/or Jate would indeed be fair game for that term. Although I agree that name calling of any kind is pretty pointless.

Anonymous said...

"But I'm failing to understand the claim from this scene. WHAT EXACTLY is Jack doing to her emotionally here? The abuse can't just be because he's "screaming" at her. How did Jack HURT HER? Jack is being held captive and in walks Kate telling him he HAS to do what Ben says. Jack isn't allowed to be suspicious and aggravated with this situation? When its clear to him that Kate is being used and lied to by Ben?"

The problem isn't that Jack was suspicious or annoyed with Ben. Kate's distressed and all Jack can do is yell at her, saying things like "How did they get you to ask me?! What did they offer you?!" Screaming at someone the way Jack did in this scene is not loving behavior. Ever. Jack completely dismisses Kate's distress in that scene.

I'm not going to go through each and every quote you responded to because it all comes down to the same point and it's clear that you don't get it. You make excuses for Jack every time. I repeat ...nothing excuses or warrants Jack's treatment of Kate or any woman in the situations I mentioned. If a man who supposedly loves a woman can head far away from her while she's held prisoner in handcuffs or yell at her while she's down, then I pray that you never experience that kind of "love". I don't know any man in love who acts in that way.

Cont'd...

Anonymous said...

...It isn't surprising that you express surprise that Kate and Sawyer showed more love for each other. The following quote says more about their feelings for each other than any moment between Jack and Kate. From the "I Do" script notes:

Quote:
Sawyer: So lemme ask you somethin' Freckles ...When Blockhead was beatin' on me and you said "I love you", that was just to get him to stop ...right?

Kate freezes. She isn't sure what she should say here. In truth she's feeling everything for Sawyer but is afraid if she admits it, puts it out there, it will scare him off. And Sawyer? Before she can even respond--

Sawyer: I love you too.

But even though he tosses it off like it's no big deal-- it's the most sincere thing he's ever said in his entire life. Kate's heart lifts. And for this one moment in time, they are COMPLETELY CONNECTED. /quote

Lucky for Jaters, the writers decided not to keep Skate connected at the end. Unlucky for Jaters that the writers didn't write scenes for Jate like the above. If they had, I'd have understood the Jate connection in the end.

I think your purpose in calling me a hypocrite is in trying to convince yourself that I was upset that it was Jate in the sideways fantasy. They made such a botch of the entire ending, I don't know why anyone cares anymore but believe whatever you want to believe... I know that I meant what I said. You can choose not to believe it if it suits you.

Anonymous said...

"Screaming at someone the way Jack did in this scene is not loving behavior. Ever. Jack completely dismisses Kate's distress in that scene."

I thought the discussion was about whether this scene exemplifies "emotional abuse". Why are you bringing up "loving behavior"? And Jack doesn't "completely dismiss" Kate's distress. He calmly asked whether they hurt her and what they were doing to her. He even tried to calm her down, Jack: "Kate, hey. Hey. It's gonna be alright." In this scene Kate starts crying all on her own. BEFORE Jack raises his voice with her. He was NOT the cause of her distress. Jack changes his tone when she tells him he HAS to do the operation. Jack isn't allowed to question this? This was a serious situation and he NEEDED to know what THEY were doing to her, to make her act the way she was acting. He asked what they were doing to her and she says "nothing" while she is crying. Jack isn't allowed to be suspicious with this? Kate was clearly crying for a reason. Jack had a right to know why. considering he was the one who was going to have to cave to Ben, and do the operation. Jack didn't abuse Kate in this scene. He didn't get to her emotions in that way. Nor was he trying to. He was just trying to understand what was going on. Kate was distressed and stayed distressed because Sawyer was in danger. PERIOD. NOTHING to do with Jack and their glass wall convo.

"I'm not going to go through each and every quote you responded to because it all comes down to the same point and it's clear that you don't get it. You make excuses for Jack every time."

It's not excuses. The "emotional abuse" is either there or its not. I have argued that it clearly is NOT there ( in the few examples mentioned). I know your not going to go through my responses because you don't have an argument. You even had to fabricate a scene( Jack blaming Kate for not being able to go home) to help your argument for crying out loud. It is clear that YOU don't get it. NO MATTER WHAT, even if canon evidence suggests otherwise, Jack is in the wrong. Jack is the bully. The women abusing emotionally attacking creep. While poor Kate is the helpless victim. Same old same old.

Anonymous said...

"If a man who supposedly loves a woman can head far away from her while she's held prisoner"

So I take it, the reason for Jack leaving isn't good enough for you? Trying to bring rescue back for everyone. That's not a good enough excuse to leave Kate behind? It means he doesn't love her? Even though he said he would come back for her? And even though he went and got assurances for her and sayid's safety from Ben? Not good enough for ya? Jack was abusing Kate's emotions here?

"or yell at her while she's down"

I guess your referring to the glass wall scene (again) and the gun case/toy plane scene (again). In both scenes Kate was withholding info. Kate has Jack get the case/open the case all for a toy. Jack wanted to know what it was. A reasonable request considering HE was the reason she got her hands on it. To this point in the story Jack was trusting this woman and keeping her fugitive status secret. And Kate was returning Jack's kindness by lying to his face about the case/toy. He knew it. She knew it. He just wanted the truth from her. All he says is "tell me the truth" and that's translated to emotional abuse? Again, Kate got upset and was crying NOT because of what Jack was doing. She was emotional over what the toy meant to her. With the glass wall scene again, Jack wants to know what the others have done to her to make her cave to them. And she says "nothing" while its plain as day she is NOT okay(her crying). Jack is aggravated with this entire situation and the BS mind games from Ben and now Kate can't give him a straight answer. So he raises his voice with her to try and figure out what exactly the others have done to her. Again Jack is attempting to get to the bottom of things and its emotional abuse?

Anonymous said...

"The following quote says more about their feelings for each other than any moment between Jack and Kate."

So a scene where Kate says NOTHING trumps a scene where she says "yes of course I will" to a proposal and a scene where Kate actually says "I love you" to Jack. Okay . . .

"Lucky for Jaters, the writers decided not to keep Skate connected at the end."

At the end? The "connection" was broken by the end of that episode when Kate got on the walkie with Jack. It was a MOMENT. That is it. Kate's feelings on the situation were completely changed even before they left hydra island.


"I think your purpose in calling me a hypocrite is in trying to convince yourself that I was upset that it was Jate in the sideways fantasy."

When you claim you didn't want a reconnection for Sawyer/Kate in the sideways world your a LIAR. A HYPOCRITE. Every Skater wanted a Sawyer/Kate "flash" moment after 6x11 aired. Don't come on here after the fact and act like you never gave a damn. Because, AT THE TIME, YOU most certainly did.

Anonymous said...

"Unlucky for Jaters that the writers didn't write scenes for Jate like the above."

You mean unlucky for Skaters. Because the writers wrote stronger scenes for Jack/Kate. You know like scenes where Kate isn't an ambiguous mute. Scenes where she actually confides her feelings/thoughts, through dialogue, with Jack. You can look at the script notes from a single episode, from the mini arc in 2006, and ignore the other 120 episodes all you want. It doesn't change the fact that this Skate moment was JUST A MOMENT. And what happened with Kate, before/after said moment, shows that she really wasn't/didn't want to be "completely connected" to Sawyer, BUT rather she wanted to be with Jack. What happened on screen backs this up.

Anonymous said...

Script notes???

Holy crap, seriouslly??? You're tracking down script notes for episodes from years ago to support an argument?

Wow.

Anonymous said...

Understandable that some people are a bit put out by script notes when the notes reveal anything Skatey. And especially when Jate only got it together in death with no equivalent moments to be witnessed.

Anonymous said...

WITNESSED???

LOL, uh, script notes aren't "witnessed". The show is the show -- what you saw and no more.

Any author worthy of ink will always say that stories are open to differing views. Notes, early drafts, etc. are meaningless.

And this has nothing to do with supporting either stupid romance.

Anonymous said...

"And this has nothing to do with supporting either stupid romance."

LMAO.

It's the audience that can interpret scenes differently... not the script notes, since that's what the actors have to learn the writer's intended meaning.

Hot Pocket said...

How is it going, Fishbiscuit?
What are you watching now?

Kyle from Kentucky said...

lmao buffalobeast lists Damon Lindelof as the 33rd most loathsme American of 2010...

http://www.buffalobeast.com/?p=4182

33) Damon Lindelof
Charges: As co-creator of “Lost” and co-writer of the monumentally terrible final episode, Lindelof first conjured a confusing yet entertaining sci-fi epic but then, despite its mechanical sound, the “Smoke Monster” turns out to be the ghost of the father of liberal philosophy, side plots about mental illness and alternate universes go nowhere, paper-thin characters inexplicably commune with the dead, and finally, in a clichéd, Old Testament-inspired supernatural battle, evil is defeated when a big rock dildo is crammed into a shiny hole by a handsome, emotionless doctor. And the whole damn thing—concocted entirely on the fly, with no eye toward resolution—from the plane crash to the time travel was actually just some brightly-lit, stained glass, feel-good, new-age, ecumenical afterlife delirium. Right. Fuck you, Damon Lindelof. Fuck you, for stealing 127 hours of our lives, giving us hope that television needn’t be utterly awful, and then shitting out the most hackneyed, series-diminishing, spiritually pandering, lowest common denominator deus ex machina to ever air on TV. Fuck you. Fuck you with a fake beard.
Aggravating factor: One of his favorite films is Bambi.
Sentence: Something incredibly convoluted, followed by a tremendously unsatisfying ending.

...Awesome. Keep givng Damon hell I say.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I just read that again. Good summary buffalobeast.

Dead
on
right.

Anonymous said...

Quiz:

Who is this quote from? "But I've moved on. I've let it go. I hope the rest of you do too."

Anonymous said...

BSG! Hey, I noticed fishbiscuit says "
frak" alot in here blog. I thought it was just something she said, but now that I'm finally watching Battlestar Galactica, I see its a reference to that program which I am enjoying very much. Did fishbiscuit write a blog for that show too? I always loved reading her Lost commentary, so I'm hoping I can repeat the experience with BSG.

Anonymous said...

Fishbiscuit hasn't written for any other blog that I'm aware of. Wish she would. I'd watch whatever TV show she's watching, if it meant I'd have double the entertainment with one of her entries. Best reviewer I've ever had the pleasure to read. One of the few things remaining to miss about Lost. Fishbiscuit, Josh Holloway and Terry O'Quinn.

MeriJ said...

> Best reviewer I've ever had the pleasure to read.

Hear, hear!

Kyle from Kentucky said...

i wanted to say something. Back in the day when LOST was great and I was still in college i talked to my favorite professor about LOST because she was a fan. And we discussed it every week. Without a doubt the smartest LOST fan I ever knew very smart woman. Anyway last during this christmas break she had emailed me and asked me what I thought about the finale and all that and she also asked me who wrote the best reviews for finales and stuff so I of course suggested fishbiscuitland. And she read it then I went and visited her to talk about it. She agreed, she loved the review, blah blah blah. But the thing that she said that stuck out in my mind was this...

"One part of the review that FISH said that I really connected with was the quote about a finale ruining an entire series. which refers to LOST in her opinion of course."

a finale ruining an entire series. that sure sucks dont it...ahh sad but true.

Anonymous said...

Quiz:

Who is this quote from? "But I've moved on. I've let it go. I hope the rest of you do too."

Kyle from Kentucky said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Kyle from Kentucky said...

its a different matter anonymous. In december what 7 months after the show was over the jate skate debate was still out of control on here when it shouldn't have been. Not the same as what I've posted.

Anonymous said...

OK, Kyle honey, you go ahead and tell yourself whatever you need to so you can sleep at night.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Well i guess people are done posting on here.

Its pretty sad that this once great show is over.

The last thing I want to say is theres a very good chance that I'll never read another tv recap blog again. Because nothing will ever be as good.

It will be my favorite show I watched in my entire life. And fishbiscuit did by far the best work recapping each and every episode.

She did a lot of work writing these recaps. And I want to say thank you to her because she gave quite me quite a bit of insight about the show and life to an extent. And I laughed several times at every single post.

Its been over for a long time now. But I still miss the recaps.

Thanks

Parl said...

I see people post about Lost occasionally on Twitter and TWoP. They are mostly Lost/Darlton worshippers no matter what and Jate and or Suliet fans.

The common characteristics:
-they believer people who didn't like the finale "didn't get it", failing to point out what exactly was so hard to understand

-they still suck up to Damon and Carlton, and other Lost people who are on Twitter

-they, for some reason, keep talking about Lost in the "Unpopular Opinions" thread on TWoP (e.g. Suliet was epic - they ignore the fact that all TV reviewers share their opinion and that it's not really an unpopular opinion; Lost is brilliant; I loved the season finale of Lost, Jack is great etc.)


Maybe someone should create a new blog for people who from time to time still get the urge to vent about Lost, but don't know where to do it.

Most Lost forums are not really active anymore, and if some people still post there, it's usually the above-mentioned Lost apologists.

Anonymous said...

Except for the Fishbiscuitland forum. A lot quieter these days of course but it's still geared for rants about Lost. As well as sub-forums for other shows and current info on the Lost actors. .

Kyle from Kentucky said:
"Its been over for a long time now. But I still miss the recaps."

Me too.

Anonymous said...

Oh-em-gee, liking Suliet is an "unpopular opinion"?? Hahaha. Anything to stroke their own bloated egos, I guess.

I miss your recaps, too, Fish.

Par said...

Apparently it's the new Jate/Suliet/Lost/Jack-loving trend - posting in the unpopular opinions thread on TwOP and often registering just to do that.

Who knows why they don't talk about it on their usual Lost boards.

Anonymous said...

"she really wasn't/didn't want to be "completely connected" to Sawyer, BUT rather she wanted to be with Jack. What happened on screen backs this up."

If she wanted to be with Jack, what was stopping her? NOTHING. And yet... What happened "on screen" was she chose to have sex with Sawyer over and over again, when Jack was right there. Hell, the writers even made Jack watch. And said she was crying because she craved intimacy with Sawyer. When she was tongue-kissing Sawyer while her hand was down his pants, that was a choice. Unless there was a gun to her head off screen, but you said on screen, so...

Skate had the full monty. Over six seasons. From the first sparks of attraction to becoming friends to falling in love. They had so many things the others didn't. She wanted to have Sawyer's baby (multiple scenes, would it have been the worst thing?) and then she stole a baby (!) to replace him (to drive the point home, he had handed her the same baby, then he cried while he saw a vision of her delivering the baby, then she cried when Cassidy told her he broke her heart). They had those and more missing scenes, several more for each to drive the point home that they missed each other - I know what I can't change, it doesn't matter what I want (Sawyer) and he's gone, I can't lose him too (Kate). Then their reunion scene, so epic it was milked over two episodes. Then a dozen scenes where they couldn't keep their eyes off each other, complete with Jack/Juliet reaction shots. Yes, and their love theme playing during most of these scenes. Juliet and Jack both acknowledging what was going on - you don't like the new me or the old me, I lost her, it's too late (Jack) and it's over for us, you would only stay with me out of loyalty, I changed my mind when I saw you look at her (Juliet). And Jack and Juliet so overcome with jealousy they wanted to set off a bomb (!) - wipe clean the misery (Jack) and if I can't have you (Juliet). Then in the sixth season, lots more Skate scenes, complete with love theme. The temple, the dress, I didn't want to be alone you understand, we'll figure it out together, you and me are getting off the island, she gave up her chance when she threatened Kate, we'll never be apart again, holding hands in front of Jack, etc. When faced with a decision to stay and risk her life, she chose to stay with and fight for Swayer repeatedly, but she chose to leave Jack (and to drive the point home, she left with Sawyer). And of course in the end, they escaped together - what now, we jump! And whenever they are alive and together, skex follows. All the others got was watching Skate and Jack's dead dream. But to each his or her own. Just don't expect Skaters to buy into what you got. Because frankly, it's not worth having.

Anonymous said...

Also wanted to add, the sacrifices they were willing to make and made for each other were epic. Sawyer was in protective mode with Kate throughout the series, as early the boar attack in season one, until the very end getting her onto that plane. He begged her to run and save herself when Ben threatened her, but she refused to leave him. She fought for him with everything she had, begging Jack to help him, begging Pickett saying I will do anything, refusing to close her eyes to keep his spirits up until the bitter end. Then she ran out in front of him to protect him when Pickett was going to shoot him a second time, that was beyond brave, and as true an expression of love as you will ever see. And Sawyer jumping off the helicopter was the ultimate sacrifice, he gave up everything he had, which was her, so she'd be safe (if Jack had been a real hero, he'd have done it). And lots more examples. Skate was amazing...

Anonymous said...

"Reconnection in the sideways = Jack’s fantasy in death. No Skater wanted that for Skate since it comes from a one-sided desire from a character that isn’t even alive. Again, Kate didn’t matter except for Jack to have her there to keep him happy. None of the characters mattered except for Jack in the “sideways”. Since Jaters were all about Jack, why are you getting so annoyed about it then? Other opinions shouldn’t matter to you, but clearly it pisses you off that few people agree with your opinion, non-Skaters included."

Exactly.

Sawyer and Kate got the love story for six years, with all the traditional elements of epic romance, fully explored. If you think about it, they were given too many romantic plots for one story, that's why it's so easy to parallel their story with many other famous romances. Buy who is complaining. All the more to enjoy.

Which begs the question, if the JaterSulieters are so happy, why are they here? This blog post (written quite beautifully by someone who enjoyed the Skate romance, like a lot of us did) is a year old. Why cut down a pairing they are supposed to not care about and defend a pairing they are supposed to be happy with?

Why aren't they just off somewhere enjoying all of the many scenes with Jack being abusive to Kate? He screams and/or says something demeaning, she apologizes and cries, he gets off on it. And heck, since Jack is what they're all about, they can watch his scenes abusing Achara and his ex-wife, too.

Anonymous said...

This is a great post by Fish, about the infamous Jack leaving Kate crying in handcuffs episode, Man from Tallahassee (and I just love the letters to Fishbiscuit). I just hate to see a woman treated that way, especially after enduring a troubled childhood. But at least when she returned she had a loving reunion scene with Sawyer (and boy, did she really need it after that).

http://fishbiscuitlandblog.blogspot.com/2007/04/girl-talk.html

Anonymous said...

"Skate had the full monty. Over six seasons"

NO. That statement is all kinds of WRONG! An extorted kiss and flirting in season 1. More flirting in season 2. A couple of hook ups (contrived cages and crying/revenge over Jack "you ain't gotta use me") in season 3. And in season 4 they willingly split up from each other not once but TWO times. First, when Sawyer was only concerned about "survivin". Then Kate LEFT HIM after he point blank called her on her consistency in going back to Jack AND insulted her potential to raise a child "Yes, yes it would have been the worst thing in the world. What would we have done with a baby?". Then in his most heroic moment, Sawyer kisses Kate and jumps off the chopper to save her and his friends. THAT IS IT. Sawyer/Kate DID NOT share any romantic moments in the final TWO seasons. It wasn't there and neither character was shown to make an attempt at a restart of their past "relationship". So the FACT that skate didn't have romantic interaction in seasons 5/6 destroys the whole "Over six seasons" claim. As far as the "full monty" claim . . . you really want to go there? Did skate share a home? NO. Did Kate accept a proposal from Sawyer? NO. Were skate ever engaged? NO. Did Kate ever tell Sawyer that she had "always" been with him? NO. Did Kate ever say i love you to Sawyer? NO.

Anonymous said...

Sad Jaters haunting Fishbiscuitland a year later, you'll never convince Skaters by pretending things never happened in the face of such abundant evidence to the contrary - we quite simply got too much. Watch the entire series, you clearly missed a lot.

Anonymous said...

"Sad Jaters haunting Fishbiscuitland a year later, you'll never convince Skaters by pretending things never happened in the face of such abundant evidence to the contrary - we quite simply got too much. Watch the entire series, you clearly missed a lot."

Not pretending anything. Just laid out what happened/didn't happen between skate over the course of the series. I'm not the one deluding myself into believing skate had this 6 season long "epic" love when the "evidence to the contrary" is so "abundant". LOL!

"we quite simply got too much."

YOU "clearly missed a lot" because no level headed/rational person would say that after watching the final 35 episodes of LOST.

Anonymous said...

I loved every minute of all six seasons epic romantic in love always sexy pretty together Skate. And always will.

MeriJ said...

Why do you 'shippers need it to be totally black or white? I enjoyed the ambiguity of the various pairings and why each one worked in some ways and not in others.

Most of these characters -- especially the ones you like to fight over -- were seriously screwed up/injured human beings. How various pairings met their gaping needs for limited periods of time was intriguing.

But what's with the need to prove which team won? Hello. Your team won. Take your respective victory laps and be happy.

MeriJ said...

So bummed I haven't drawn any flames yet for that comment!

I was feeling bored and ornery yesterday...

Par said...

@MeriJ

"Why do you 'shippers need it to be totally black or white? I enjoyed the ambiguity of the various pairings and why each one worked in some ways and not in others."

Because the ending totally disrespected the ambiguity and complexity of those relationships.

Sawyer/Kate, in particular, were absolutely ignored as a romantic couple. The only one on the show. In order to push the idiotic soulmates in the afterlife idea, Darlton relegated them to just friends. Not even that. They didn't seem to give adamn about each other.

Sorry, but I expected much more after having followed that pairing for six years. (And after being teased by Darlton that there would be more romance for them - "not over by a long shot", the things they said to LylyFord in those videos etc.)

So, apologies for not respecting what I got, but I'm still honestly hurt by how I was treated in the last season of Lost. I may sound oversensitive, but I couldn't and still can't help but feel that way.

There's nothing I can do about it, but not watch any of Darlron's, individual or joint, projects. I just think what those two guys did was lame and that they intentionally screwed over us Skaters and laughed at us.

I don't know why shippers who won, Jaters and Sulieters, would find the need to engage in ship wars.

Or why those who think all shippers should be satisfied (I assume you MeriJ belong here) have feel the way you do.

par said...

Oh, I forgot to mention this. has anyone else noticed how there has been an uproar about Chuck on Gossip Girl being an abusive drunk.

But none of all these (hypocritical) reviweres and reporters ever wanted to point out to Darlton that Jack was also too often abusive to Kate (berating her, drunk stalker etc.). And I was supposed to celebrate the Lost ending as great romance-wise. Blech!

Anonymous said...

It's okay. it's okay. It's okay, par. You can let go now. Follow the others and move on.

Anonymous said...

"Sawyer/Kate, in particular, were absolutely ignored as a romantic couple."

Maybe this happened because Sawyer/Kate were no longer romantic with each other and hadn't been in the final 2 seasons. Just maybe? And maybe the characters really were JUST friends. Why is that so difficult for some to acknowledge?

Par said...

Paraphrasing the script notes for some episodes just in season 6:

Sawyer and Kate are over. Done. - If the writers weren't playing with romance (and teasing) Skate shippers, WTH was supposed to be done between them?

The triangle is "back on". - what triangle if SKate was over and their shippers weren't being strung along?

But that's not even the issue.
If the idea was to revisit the past six seasons with the afterlife representation, why was Skate the only ship that got shrugged as irrelevant and as something that never even happened. Because from what I saw, their love was a big deal in their stories. They didn't even want to give Skate the satisfaction of being acknowledged. As if it never happened.


I don't need advices about moving on. I'm trying to explain why Lost and its treatment of Skate will always bother me.

MeriJ said...

@ Par:

I was devastatingly disappointed in the ending, mostly in terms of the abandonment of the character arcs. So no argument there.

But I guess I hadn't thought of it as Jate and Suliet winning. I thought the whole shipper arc was just abandoned. Jack and Juliet die on the Island, Sawyer and Kate leave on the plane, but with no clear resolution as to their relationship.

In the timeless LA X, Jate and Suliet happen, but that whole afterlife thing seemed so random I didn't really think of it as meaning much.

I mean, wtf. It felt like someone else writing the sequel to Gone With the Wind decades later -- interesting if you can't get enough of those characters, but not something you'd rely on to change your views of the original story.

I guess I prefer my own interpetation of beloved stories/poem/lyrics to whatever it turns out the author intended.

So for me, none of this was resolved.

If I were a shipper, I'd be in skateland. But I didn't think any of these key people ended up together. Kate and James left on the plane and presumably remained deeply close, but probably not as a couple. Eventually they both die and reconnect with the elusive love interest who got away. For a few seconds, prior to ceasing to exist as conscious beings.

The end. That's how it seemed to me.

Thanks for your thoughtful reponse to my flame-bait. A lot of us still feel a gaping hole on this topic.

MeriJ said...

Not my place to offer advice, but here is what I meant when I said “your team won,” meaning whichever shipper team you were on.

LA X was a silly pet trick whose only purpose seemed to be to set up the original ending (church scene and Jack dying as the plane flew away) which JJ Abrams and whatshisname supposedly wrote at the end of season one. Ignore that entire last season, or at least the LA X part. It had nothing to do with what happened between season one and the last season. It was an attempted act of cleverness, to end the franchise in a way that would be thought cool. “We stayed true to the original plan, blah blah blah.”

But Lost was a living thing; it grew in unexpected directions between season one and the end. They sacrificed most of that evolution in order to brag that they’d used that ending.

Kate and James left on the plane together. If you believe they were meant to be a couple, then why do you assume that they didn’t? LA X might have been Jack’s fantasy dream, for all we know. Or it might have been one of several overlapping resolution experiences that those people went through upon their deaths -– an experience based entirely on events during that brief period they were together on the island. They might have had other such experiences based on whom they later married and the kids they had together. In that post-death resolution experience, Kate and Sawyer might have been happily reunited as an older married couple.

Whatever LA X was, I really don’t think it deserves as much power as we give it. I speak for myself, at least, because it depressed the crap out of me for months.

Anonymous said...

"why was Skate the only ship that got shrugged as irrelevant and as something that never even happened."

But they interacted in the flash sideways world. Its not like they didn't share scenes together. They didn't share any mutual flashes of recognition BUT "fate" had them run into each other. That sounds like enough for a couple that didn't even share ILYs. If Skate had been given some kind of undeserved romantic recognition in the sideways world than that would of shrugged Jate/Suliet off as "something that never even happened". And it would of rendered the stronger character connections Jack/Kate & Sawyer/Juliet as weaker and "irrelevant". Kate can't have both Sawyer and Jack. It was always going to come down to just one of them. It wasn't Sawyer.

Anonymous said...

"Because from what I saw, their love was a big deal in their stories."

Maybe you read TOO MUCH into something that really wasn't THAT big of a deal. Because from what I saw over six seasons, Kate never fully reciprocated the feelings Sawyer had for her. And look what happened . . .

MeriJ said...

> Kate can't have both Sawyer and Jack.

That's not true, if you are referring to her heart.

Even if Jack hadn't died on the island, both Jack and Kate could have continued to love both the person they chose and the one who got away.

Holding onto deep feelings for the one who got away is easy. What's hard for many -- and certainly for those three people -- is staying in love with the person you choose.

Anonymous said...

"That's not true, if you are referring to her heart."

No, I was referring to the endgame of the sideways world. We were never going to see BOTH Sawyer and Jack "flash" with Kate or BOTH Sawyer and Jack holding Kate's hand/sitting with her in that church. It was always going to come down to just one of them. Kate's feelings for one were going to be stronger and win out over the other. So as far as Kate's heart goes: Jack > Sawyer.

Anonymous said...

Dear dear Par,

But don't you understand? You have to let go, or you'll never be ready to move on?

How long will you stay outside on that bench with Ben?

Anonymous said...

"Even if Jack hadn't died on the island, both Jack and Kate could have continued to love both the person they chose and the one who got away."

If Jack lives, in this scenario, than who is the "one who got away"? Wouldn't it just be Kate and Jack choose each other. That is what they ultimately wanted. Nobody got away.

MeriJ said...

Agreed, "the one who got away" was not the best phrasing for a scenario in which Jack and Juliet don't die and Kate and Sawyer therefore have to choose. The "one you allowed to slip away" would make more sense there.

Personally I don't see Jack + Kate working out in the long run, even if that had been the choice Kate had made. But who knows how these people might have changed after saving the day on the island...

I'm just saying I don't believe LA X answered the 'shipper question. Therefore I believe thoughtful individuals could come to different answers on what might have been. Pick the one that feels right to you and be happy.

MeriJ said...

More on my belief that neither Kate nor Sawyer made a choice between the competing love interests they faced:

The LA X we saw resulted from Jack and Juliet dying prior to Kate or Sawyer needing to choose.

As Juliet fell down the hole, Sawyer confirmed his choice of her. No doubt. And I believe that had she survived that moment, he would have honored that choice. But that was after living as a couple for years in Kate's absence and then facing her imminent death. Not exactly a fair test of who he preferred, now is it? It proved that he was a good man, however, so that won my heart.

Kate chose Jack back in LA during the period Sawyer was still on the island. It didn't work out because the island wasn't done with Jack. But regardless, she didn't choose him over Sawyer. She chose him over raising Aaron alone.

Given a fair test, I believe Sawyer would have chosen Kate and Kate would have remained indecisive for a painfully long time and then probably would have chosen Sawyer. But it might have gone the other way.

In the end I thought the shipper storyline ended up being a tragedy: Circumstances and the island stole away these people's choices because its needs were bigger than their romantic fates. It treated them like pieces on a board game, apparently for a greater cause.

So the shipper storyline ended up not being able to follow its natural course. Circumstances intervened, as they often do in wartime.

I just don't see how anyone can claim that the other 'ship "lost."

MeriJ said...

Yeah, I saw that. I just don't give that much credence to LA X as the sole reality of how the survivors lives worked out. It felt to me like the way the writers' lives worked out.

Certainly, if I wanted to believe Kate and Sawyer's lives worked out differently, I could.

It took me writing all those words to realize that I believe the relationship triangle turned out to be a tragedy. So my "be happy" comments feel pretty stupid in retrospect. Not a first for me, unfortunately.

MeriJ said...

I can't argue with that. You are correct. I have simply chosen to see it differently because the show meant too much to me to stay bitter forever.

I was relating this conversation to my gf last night and found myself weeping while describing the characters and how much they meant to me.

Even old Jack, with that terrified look on his face as John Locke tries to get him to understand that he doesn't really have a son.

MeriJ said...

>You can't ignore what was shown in the afterlife and create your own version of the ending.

>Darlton didn't want us to.

That is very funny. Thank you. I did buy that book of Darlton canon, btw, so I know what you're talking about. Very funny indeed.

Fortunately I'm a 21st century American, so I do whatever I please. They screwed the pooch, I choose to remember it differently. Works for me ... at least some of the time.

Anonymous said...

@MeriJ If you don't mind me asking, why did you even buy that book? What did you expect to read or find in it?

Anonymous said...

So Enageline Lilly had a baby boy. Just in time to celebrate the anniversary of "The End". :D

MeriJ said...

I bought the book for my 18 year old son and my girlfriend's 12 year old son -- a true fan boy.

And for me, to a lesser extent.

Anonymous said...

I rarely met anyone who even casually watched Lost in real life, let alone die-hard fans so I'm curious about other people's experiences.

How did your son and that other boy like the show's ending?

MeriJ said...

The 12-year old said it wasn't epic. (I'm only half joking there.) He was extremely distraught and depressed, to be honest, but for 12-year old reasons. He was sad that Jack died at the end and that Jack's son in LA X turned out not to be real. The LA X reveal was a disappointment to him. He expected it to be more awesome. He was pretty pissed off, actually.

The 18-year old was deeply into the character arcs and was disappointed their threads didn't connect in unexpected ways at the end. But he is generally a positive person and so he focused more on what he liked about the ending -- the heart strings stuff and the various reveals like the words Sawyer and Juliet spoke at the vending machine.

We had watched Lost together and discussed it endlessly since midway through season one, so it was an important part of our own father-son relationship.

I started out deciding to like the ending and argued endlessly on its behalf -- as I had for the entire last season -- in the comments section of the Washington Post's Lost recaps. It wasn't until Fish came out with her recap that all my disappointment came to the surface. She explained what my subconscious already knew.

Such a waste.

So now I'm trying to remember where I thought it might have gone and am attempting to imagine those possibilities instead. I was expecting Charles Dickens.

Anonymous said...

"I started out deciding to like the ending and argued endlessly on its behalf -- as I had for the entire last season -- in the comments section of the Washington Post's Lost recaps. It wasn't until Fish came out with her recap that all my disappointment came to the surface. She explained what my subconscious already knew.

Such a waste."

What kept and still keeps you attached to the show and what disappointed you most about the ending?

I admit I never thought much about Lost in general, and stayed invested in it primarily for Skate and Sawyer. The show started going downward a while back so the ending was just like a gigantic turd on top of a very big pile of crap. (Apologies for impolite and inappropriate analogy but sadly it's the best I could think of at the moment.)

Didn't Fish have some plans for this blog when Lost ended. Why are there no more recaps, maybe for other shows or to have fun with how ridiculous certain aspects of Lost ended up being or maybe some behind-the-scenes things that went on?

The most consistent critic of Lost staying mum is kinds of sad to see. Why give Darlton that pleasure.

MeriJ said...

Can't speak for Fish. Unless she's commenting here under another name, she went totally Jacob on us soon after her last recap. I must say I admire her resolve and/or her ability to move on. And I appreciate that she keeps the comments section open for those of us made of weaker stuff.

Most of us who still post here are just echoing the observations she made last June.

I might summarize my own disappointment later. I would need some time to keep it concise.

MeriJ said...

>The most consistent critic of Lost staying mum is kinds of sad to see.

BTW, I didn't experience Fish that way. Consistent, for sure. But until the end of the last season I thought she loved the show -- warts, Jackfaces and all.

Maybe I just read her recaps with a fan's eye...

Anonymous said...

In short notes:

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/watch_with_kristin/b243396_lost_ended_one_year_ago_are_you_still.html

(by @JenniferArrow on Twitter)

Anonymous said...

"BTW, I didn't experience Fish that way. Consistent, for sure. But until the end of the last season I thought she loved the show -- warts, Jackfaces and all.

Maybe I just read her recaps with a fan's eye..."

Critic as in pointing out the bad along with the good. And not sticking her head up Damon's and Carlton's asses.

I will never understand why some obvious faults Lost had never got called out by mainstream reviewers/critics.

For example, its dreadful dialogue. How can people claim it's a well written show with such badly written dialogue. How!?

It's an offense to writers who do a damn good job on plenty of other shows.

Blue said...

Does anyone here watch Game of Thrones?

If yes, would you recommend it to someone who thought Lost was not really well written and complex/layered?

MeriJ said...

>For example, its dreadful dialogue. How can people claim it's a well written show with such badly written dialogue. How!?

Maybe not compared to a typical HBO series. But I didn't think the dialogue was that wretched overall. Maybe actors like Terry O'Quinn and Michael Emerson just made it seem better to me than it really was.

Anonymous said...

Now over a year later, I still come to read this review. Thank you for telling it like it is. My feelings towards LOST fluctuate, but your words sum up the totality of my emotions to this show. If it was about the characters, then why did only 1 (Jack) get a real ending? Sawyer and Kate getting FUBAR is an insult to those wanted true romance to have an important role in LOST and was a real WTF moment. It is such a shame that LOST ended this way, such a tragedy for those who invested 6 years in it. Thank you Fish, for keeping it real. The apologist haters will keep at it, but deep down I think they know too. They just need time to admit it.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Amazing that shipper wars are still going on here. I'll say what I've said for years,

Watch the entire series. Unless you are lying to yourself Skate feels real and Jate feels forced.

I will never ever ever ever watch anything that Damon Lindeloff is remotely involved in ever again. I barely watched tv in the 2010-11 season because I am now so untrustworthy of writers and producers to wrap up a show and not con their own fans. So I do not get involved.

I think that LOST fans were some of the smartest tv fans of any series. BUT the absolute smartest LOST fans were the fans that decided to stop watching after Live Together Die Alone or Through the Looking Glass because they knew they were getting conned and they werent going to get answered nor were they going to get any good resolution in the story they were so involved in. I was not one of the smart fans I was one of the morons that trusted Cuseloff right up to about .. Across the Sea (of shit).

I think that its hilarious that to this day, fans still stay that YEA the end wasnt a great episode but at least it was about the characters and the characters got good resolutions. That more than anything else pisses me off

Anyways. I miss LOST when it was awesome and I miss Fish and her witty recaps

Anonymous said...

Really Kyle, are you actually a little girl in junior high?: "I will never ever ever ever watch anything that Damon Lindeloff is remotely involved in ever again. I barely watched tv in the 2010-11 season because I am now so untrustworthy of writers and producers to wrap up a show and not con their own fans. So I do not get involved."

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Really. wont watch another damon lindelof project. How could I trust his writing.

Henry Holland said...

Nice to see FB didn't close this place down.

I finally bought the S6 DVD's --not because I'll watch the episodes, but just to be a completeist and hey, they were $20 on Amazon-- and I watched the 12 minute scene where Ben cleans up some DHARMA loose ends.

And damned if I didn't get angry again with the two chuckleheads who ruined seasons 5 & 6! I learned more in that short clip about mysteries and stuff than I did in season 6. The total disposal of the character of Walt is unforgiveable, I don't give a damn about MDK going through puberty as an excuse. Arrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh.

Nice to read FB's rant again.

MeriJ said...

Anything else (extras) worth watching on those DVDs?

Anonymous said...

I still like to occasionally reading opinions of the few posters on TelevisionwithoutPity who didn't like the finale:

These two by TrebledTimes

"I thought it was terrible. It felt like the writers went into a New Age bookstore and skimmed a few books, then came up with a cheap sentimental ending. Either that or they just cribbed liberally from the final moments of "Longtime Companion" and "Six Feet Under."

When exactly did Sawyer and Kate become a footnote as a couple? They were the couple of the show for me, along with Claire and Charlie. You never would have known by their interaction tonight. Strange.

Ultimately, though, "Lost" was a mystery. That's why I watched it. It failed miserably in its final act.

Awful. Just awful."



"I've had the chance in the last ten days to read this entire thread (very enjoyable) and to re-watch key episodes of the series, as well as "The End" again. And despite all the good things in the final episode -- stunning cinematography, good action sequences, touching reunions, I'm still stuck where I was. This was the wrong ending.

I like that Jack died a hero's death, and that Sun/Jin, Penny/Desmond and Rose/Bernard ended up together. Who could argue otherwise? Charlie and Claire made the episode for me. Their reunion was the very definition of earned. But the Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet resolution left plenty to be desired. I think any re-watch of the series will show that Sawyer had deep, conflicted feelings for Kate and that only his newfound honor would have kept him with Juliet had they departed on the sub as planned in "The Incident." Sawyer's feelings for Kate are what ultimately drove Juliet back to the island and to her death. So, while her death was tragic and heroic, I simply don't buy the Suliet "true love" treatment in the finale. I think there was much left to explore in the Kate/Sawyer/Juliet triangle and the show chose to ignore it in favor of a simplistic ending. Even the smallest hint that Sawyer and Kate had some kind of life together off the island might have placated me. I have similar problems with Jack/Kate and Sayid/Shannon. The evidence simply isn't there to support the treacly ending those two couples received.

I have similar problems with the overly simplistic MiB/Jacob plot. After so much intrigue (time travel, alternative worlds, paranormal suggestions) the heart of the epic boiled down to a Sunday school story, and not even a very good one.

Very disappointing."

MeriJ said...

Thanks for reposting those comments by TrebledTimes. I totally agree on all counts.

Par said...

Why do TV writers feel the need turn their characters, who are already widely popular, into completely unrecognizable and whitewashed versions of themselves.

On Lost they did it with most of the characters in the alternate universe.

They turned my complex, tortured, badass and capable of being bad Sawyer into an uptight, upstanding policeman James Ford. WTF? They were NOT the same person.

And now Alan Ball is pulling some amnesia/innocent-little-boy crap with Eric.

I liked these characters even when they were their "bad" selves because there was always enough ambiguity in their behavior.

But what pisses me even more are people who became fans of these characters only after they basically turned into completely different characters. Creators acting the same is even worse.

Anonymous said...

http://io9.com/5827048/jj-abrams-wants-your-ideas-for-how-lost-should-have-ended

Does anyone have enough time to give him a few ideas? :D

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I've considered a rewatch of this show a couple of times over the past year and a half but I find a rewatch of LOST is impossible. Instead of happily seeing characters and storylines and mysteries I once loved so much all I could ever do the whole time is constantly getting frustrated and focusing on the numerous plotholes, ignored mysteries, and even ignored characters in every episode that were meaningless by the end...

I think that is one of the saddest things of all. And its all because of a final season and series finale that were such a major let-down.

"The end date driven decline" was the thing that made the show completely different for me and not as good as the first 3 years of the show. Instead of looking ahead and saying "God I can't wait to show LOST to my children when they're in their late teens" I just think "I don't want waste 130 hours of someones life on this shit.."

why did you have to leave JJ?

The Rush Blog said...

I get the feeling that you're pissed that the end of the series focused upon Jack, because he is one of your least favorite characters. It seemed you have clearly forgotten that Jack was the series' main character and that it was only natural that it would end from his POV.

You also seemed pissed that the series didn't end with "Skate". The potential for that romance died back in S4. Again, what did you expect?

The Rush Blog said...

But LOST, since it couldn't be original in any other way, decided that this well loved archetype would be the one, the only one, that would stand on its head. They de-sexed their Han Solo and made sure that he ended up getting gotz in the end of the story. There could be no romantic victory for Sawyer, just like there could be no heroic victory, because nothing could be allowed to deflect any light from the greater glory of the magnificent Jackass. Sawyer's fate, and the fate of Sawyer and Kate as a love story, was one more casualty of LOST's Revenge of the Alpha Nerds.


Oh brother! I rest my case from my previous post.

Anonymous said...

@The Rush Blog Are you new to Lost or have just recently read Fishbiscuit's blog/reviews?

Why did you like the finale? Or, the show as a whole, really? I thought both sucked. :D

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I never liked Jack from day 1. I did love the fact that there was a huge and wonderful cast with great stories for pretty much every character. Personally I wasnt that pissed that they focused on Jack so much I was pissed that everyone else got shafted. Sayid, Kwons, Desmond, Locke, etc etc...

Anonymous said...

"You also seemed pissed that the series didn't end with "Skate". The potential for that romance died back in S4. Again, what did you expect?"

What romance?! According to the Lost finale, there was never any Skate romance.

JJ said...

Oh Kyle... "It will be my favorite show I watched in my entire life."

Treasure your memories and move on. or not.

MeriJ said...

JJ?

Par said...

Fanfcition suggestion for Skaters only:

http://aboutbunnies.livejournal.com/tag/pairing%3A%20kate%2Fsawyer

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Matthew Fox was detained by cops in Cleveland, Ohio Saturday night after allegedly assaulting a woman outside of a bar ... TMZ has learned.

Law enforcement sources at the scene tell us ... the "Lost" star allegedly tried to enter a party bus -- even though he wasn't a guest on the vehicle.

We're told the woman who was driving the bus tried to block Fox from getting on board -- at which point, he allegedly punched her in the breast and the "stomach area."

Fox was handcuffed by an off-duty officer -- and was later detained by police.

Fox was released without being formally arrested.

An assault report was taken and the matter remains under investigation.

We have not been able to reach Fox for comment.

UPDATE: According to the police report, obtained by TMZ, the woman PUNCHED BACK -- and struck Fox "in the mouth ... causing a cut on his lip."

The woman told police she may have broken her hand during the altercation.

Fox was later released to a friend ... who put the actor into a taxi and accompanied him back to his hotel


lmao what a guy

Kyle from Kentucky said...

yep it will be my favorite show I ever watched. shame on me i guess

Pa said...

Well, there have been other stories about Matthew Fox behaving badly, but this one sounds more serious.

But, it's not like people minded him or his antics, especially on the set of Lost. Jorge Garcia and Evangeline Lilly in particular seemed to love the guy and enjoyed working with him.

Didn't Evangeline Lilly team up with Matthew Fox when they negotiated together for more money before or during season 4? Leaving behind all the other castmembers?

So, I assume Lilly and Fox were the closest two among the cast.

MeriJ said...

>Par said...
>Fanfcition suggestion for Skaters only:

http://aboutbunnies.livejournal.com/tag/pairing%3A%20kate%2Fsawyer

Very cool. I wish more of us had spent time writing these drabbles (new word for me!) about episodes that might have been instead of just reacting to what the Lost writers came up with.

The creativity the Lost community showed in researching and thinking about the show indicates we had the talent. But most of us thought the writers knew what they were doing, so we focused on their work. This would have been a better use of our talent that last season.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Oh yay I'm back again. I saw something on tv I just had to post about it here..

So I DVR'd the Hawaii 5.0 episode tonight. I've never watched the show but they promoted "Terry O'Quinn from LOST" being on the show for weeks so I had to record it.

Anywho.. there was a little scene where Mr. O'Quinn was talking to a dude where he was asked IF he would be interested in becoming partners and opening up a little shrimp stand...

Oh the irony...

Anonymous said...

Vlavelle42@yahoo.com

I only recently watched LOST for the first time this passed summer. although late to the game, i couldn't agree more with your assessment. This show failed EPICLY, because in the end it was all about THE JACK SHOW! And, if like myself, you couldn't stand Jack, than you were completely shit out of luck. I believe the writers intended everything to be about him from the very beginning. The flawed character who just couldn't get over his alcoholic fathers lack of belief in him. Who the hell cares??? this show was an ensemble cast of 'characters' and each of them should have had a redemptive resolution to their existences. Jate being Fate was an absolute abomination. i agree that the writers had written alot of subtext into Jate i.e. 'i've always been with you', 'it was not all misery' etc but they wrote just as much, if not more, subtextual meaning into Skate! A born-runner who refuses to leave a man who she refuses to acknowledge that she loves until he's gone from her life and than ends up keeping a baby that doesn't belong to her in order to heal her broken heart and extreme pain she felt over losing him! who keeps 'a human being' to get over a broken heart? that's pretty significant subtext, don't you think? not to mention all the crossing path connections these 2 characters shared prior to even meeting and how their true feelings manifested themselves physically in a way in which was never seen between Jack and Kate nor Sawyer and Juliet (that was just plain ridiculous). i also couldn't agree more that Sawyer's character pretty much died after he jumped from the chopper, except i will say i think he really didn't become irrelevant until mid way through season 5 when he became Dharma Iniative Sawyer uggg! after that the writers did nothing significant with his character. a character who had become so heroic. he essentially just walked around throughtout season 6 like a zombie, but than again he wasn't the only one. look at Sun,Locke,Sayid etc. they all became pretty much irrelevant as Jack became more and more the only character that mattered except this time he was just a broken pathetic shell of a man because why? wait for it....he lost Kate? geez. people do some pretty crazy shit when a relationship fails as epicly as theirs did but if someone wanted to detonate a hydrogen bomb over it that person would more than likely be in jail or the psych ward! i knew endgame before i even watched LOST but had no idea how much it would bother me. i don't think i'll ever get over how Darlon destroyed a great show and love story(skate) by never deviating from their original plan to make it jack-centric when they could have and should have changed that path along the way, particularly when so many other characters on the show proved to be more likeable and interesting than Sir-Cries-Alot! oh well it's done and over with and let's pray they never get to write another show again! Amen!

Anonymous said...

vlavelle42@yahoo.com

gotta add a P.S. to my above comment after i read a bunch of 'Jack defenses' and how he was so 'good' to Kate and never abused her or anyone in anyway. some of you people need to have a LOST re-watch!!!!
1.Jack had many snappy, condescending remarks when dealing with most of the other castaways (multiple examples of that) including Locke, Charlie, Hurley, Sawyer, Kate, Sun etc. if he hadn't been the only doctor there, i think most of the people would've thrown his ass in the ocean!
2. he would give Kate the cold shoulder when she 'disobeyed' him (the hunting party) or after she began sleeping with Sawyer (as if she wasn't supposed to have a choice, she WASN'T Jack's girlfriend nor was she cheating on him!!!)AND YES JATERS-KATE WAS IN LOVE WITH SAWYER, HAVE NO DELUSIONS ABOUT THAT! THAT IS CANON! READ LINDELOF QUOTES ABOUT SKATE. SHE LOVED HIM (IN THE 'ROMANTIC' SENSE OF THE WORD) AND WAS EMOTIONALLY DEVASTATED ENOUGH TO KEEP AARON FOR 3 YEARS TO FIX HER BROKEN HEART OVER SAWYER, AS WELL AS STILL PINING FOR SAWYER WHEN SHE RETURNS TO THE ISLAND! IN THE END KATE LOVES JACK BUT PLEASE STOP RUNNING YOUR CRAZY MOUTHS OFF TRYING TO SAY SHE NEVER LOVED SAWYER...BECAUSE IT MAKES YOU SOUND LIKE DAMN FOOLS!!!!
now back to Jackass....
3. he became a prescription-forging drug addict. and lets not forget the booze just like dear old dad
4. had no problem lying under oath in a court of law in order to get Kate 'off'( no pun intended)
5.Flew around on planes and 'hoped' they would crash and even told Kate he didn't care what happened to any of the other people on the plane(nice)
6. he constantly berated and belittled Locke (who incidently was right about most things and Jack-ass was usually wrong) and told him in a most hurtful manner what a 'waste of a human life' he was (paraphrasing in that last example b/c i don't remember the exact words but i do remember him saying something equally cruel and judgemental to Locke, that IMHO wasn't justified).
7. he stalked his ex wife Sarah,accused his father of having an affair with her and then beat his father up at an A.A. meeting, which led to his father 'falling off the wagon'
8. Stalked Achara in Thailand b/c she didn't tell him where she was going (how dare she)
9.used trickery to try to get the other survivors to go back to the island by working in league with Ben, whom he knew was an S.O.B. and did that to serve his own purposes
10.decided to detonate a hydrogen bomb to reverse the plane crash (was wrong ,as usual about that one) regardless of who would die on the island or the fact that he would be ruining the lives of Sawyer and Juliet and also despite the fact that if it actually did work Kate would be going to jail for the rest of her life for murder! (yeah sounds like he really loved her alot).
11. smashed the looking glass mirrors that Jacob used to observe ALL the candidates and Jack, being the narcissistic, egomaniac that he was, ran around yelling 'why is he watching me?' well Jackass, he wasn't just watching YOU, he was watching everybody (YOU ALL EVERYBODY-just had to throw that in there)!!!
12. wanted 'nothing ' to do with his own orphaned nephew (still don't understand that one, but then again it's Jack, so who the hell can understand it)
Jack was a certifiable crazy person who ought to be in Jail or a psych ward somewhere!!! rather than 'deal' with his break-up with Kate he'd rather kill a whole bunch of people and see her end up going to jail for the rest of her life! yup thats some kinda love!

Par said...

Of course Jack was right when he treated Locke badly. Locke was wrong all along, you silly. Locke was just a fool, who, like most other characters, didn't deserve any special moment in the end, other than propping Jack.

But what am I saying. John Locke, as I knew and loved him, died in season 5. TPTB didn't know how to write him properly so they turned him into another character.

Anonymous said...

What???? Locke wasn't wrong!!! Jack was!!! Locke was absolutely correct in his acknowlegement that each and every person was brought to the island for 'a reason' and in the end Jackass knew that was true, being that he came back to the island. The island Locke was correct in telling him that none of them were ever supposed to leave in the first place until their destiny on the island was fulfilled!Locke was correct that the people on the freighter were not there to rescue any of them! did you watch LOST? i hate what the writers did with Locke's character because he was a far more intriging character than Jack ever was! But believe whatever you want about the show. that's your right just try to contain yourself from personal attacks ok? i'm not silly...thank you very much and i understood the meaning and subtext throughout the show

Anonymous said...

I was being ironic. We share the same opinion about Jack and Locke. :D

Anonymous said...

vlavelle42@yahoo.com

oopppss lol....yeah now that i reread it, i see i jumped to wrong conclusion! sorry ;)

MeriJ said...

No offense intended to anyone, but Jack is not worth this much attention.

As written, he wasn't as a bad a person as some here suggest, IMO, but he was probably the least interesting of the primary characters on the show.

They gave him one version of a hero's arc, with a dark period of aimless wandering -- most of his life in Jack's case -- and then a sacrificial redemption.

But to most of us, he was just a messed up dude in an ensemble of similarly messed up characters. I prefer to leave him that way and simply ignore the writers' decision to elevate him above the others.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

that's right. Locke, Desmond, Sayid and Sawyer deserved more attention

Anonymous said...

I thought Lost was never a great show and ended ridiculousy, mythology and character-wise.

But why is Evangeline Lilly being an ass about not wanting to talk about Lost on recent talk shows. Couldn't she politely explain that she'd rather talk about new projects. Instead she tries to comes off as so crazy and goofy. Blah.

MeriJ said...

She's always seemed a little awkward/self-conscious in interviews, IMO.

Some celebs are totally as ease in those situations, and others act oddly because they are nervous. That guy from Northern Exposure was another one. Not fun to watch.

I still like the Kate character, however, gaping flaws and all.

Anonymous said...

She doesn't come off as awkward. She actually seems to like the attention and being in the spotlight. Although she tries to act "non-Hollywoody" and different.

I just think she came off as rude.

And it's not like she was one of the people who disliked how Lost ended, at least from what I know. Kindly responding to one question about her experience on the show would've been polite and enough.

MeriJ said...

Makes one grateful not to be a celeb. It's a weird life.

notWalt said...

Wow, Vlavelle42@yahoo.com, don't you know that Achara and Jack's tatto's are never supposed to be mentioned again?

Anonymous said...

vlavelle42@yahoo.com
@notWalt
Fair enough LOL! very bad episode that explained absolutely nothing to anyone about anything! i was just using it to point out the 'stalking' aspect of Jack's character even while having a 'vacation fling' he needed to creepily follow this chick around,throw her against a wall and force her to do as he said, which was give him a dumbass tattoo LMAO!

Anonymous said...

vlavelle42@yahoo.com

there's some 'anonymous' Jaters on here who keep saying that Cassidy's revelation about Kate keeping Aaron has no significance and was only an opinion. Jaters have selective deafness because obviously they weren't watching the scene in which Kate returns Aaron to Claire's mother who asks why she kept Aaron in the 1st place and Kate says "BECAUSE I NEEDED HIM". Kate clearly acknowledges that her heart was broken over Sawyer and that she tried to heal it by keeping Aaron.
Also much is made of Kate jumping Sawyer in the tent because Jack is having dinner with Juliet. How about giving fair balance to that by acknowledging Kate's reaction to finding out from Hurley that Sawyer is now with Juliet or her reaction to Sawyer saying that he and Kate would have never worked out and Kate pointing out that he seems to be doing just fine with Juliet! She doesn't seem to pleased and she certainly doesn't go 'jumping' Jack for any comfort! obviously 'jumping' Jack doesn't provide much comfort since she already tried that the night she left Aaron with Claire's mother. Seems to me like she couldn't wait to run out of his apartment fast enough the next day. obviously 'jumping' Sawyer works, since she continued to do it LOL
And lets not forget the 'dock scene' in 'what Kate does'. why does Kate breakdown crying so intensely after Sawyer takes the ring he intended to give to Juliet and throws it in the water? There are various reasons but one is Kate's acknowledgement that Sawyer is 'done' with her!
Kate jumped off the ground when Sawyer was dragged unconscious into the Temple, she leaves Jack at there like nothing to go running after Sawyer, avoided a romantic overture by Jack, never intended to return with Sawyer to the temple(or to Jack)and when asked 'who do you care about Kate?' by Jin, she never said Jack's name but her actions said Sawyer, since that's who she ran off to get.
She also doesn't tell the man (Jaters claim) she loves about why she came back to the island but she does tell Sawyer 'i was hoping to catch up with YOU and YOU could help me find Claire and WE could bring her back to Aaron'
Jaters like to believe that the writers were just 'skater-baiting' when they wrote these things but if that is the case than can anything they wrote be trusted. i mean if you can't trust them writing scenes and dialogue showing she was in love with Sawyer, than how can you trust scenes and dialogue in which they portray her 'great' love for Jack.
And as far as Kate choosing Jack over Sawyer, it seems more like she didn't have much of a choice in the matter being that Sawyer chose Juliet over Kate!
In the end, the Sulieters, God bless them, really were the winners, because if it wasn't for them being the overwhelming majority of shippers all through season 6 do you really believe that Darlton would have gone with an inexplicable(cannot be explained or accounted for), out of the blue Jate ending if by chance Skaters had greater numbers? not saying they would have, just saying they could have. i doubt Darlton would have had the stones to buck the fans wishes. in the end the shipper war broke down to 25%Skate,25% Jate and 40% Suliet when fans voted for their OTP. Jate=Suliet, so majority ruled. Sorry so many people didn't understand the subtext of the show but then again the writers sucked in the 'romance' dept. oh yeah and answering questions and character resolution depts too!
another thing to keep in mind....Sawyer and Juliet were the final and most epic of 'flash and remember' couples. Kate only flashed to Claire's va-jay-jay and Jack 'flashed' on his father's coffin (ewwww).in the end Suliet ruled (and i'm a skater btw) and i'm happy the overwhelming amount of the audience was more concerned about a happy ending for Sawyer! rather than Jack!

MeriJ said...

What these comments confirm to me is that fully realized characters in fiction or poetry live outside the intentions their creators had for them. As we get to know them, they become real people to us -- and each of us imagines them somewhat differently.

How else to explain the otherwise odd notion that their creators portrayed them incorrectly?

Anonymous said...

The point has not yet been made but I never cared about the characters and the ships, the most compelling part of lost to me was The dharma initiative, which the writers completely screwed, the should have shown us the home office.

Anonymous said...

oh absolutely! although i was a shipper and did care about the characters and the romances, i still wish the writers would have given us some more insight into a lot things they never explained fully. The Dharma Iniative. The Others and their origins and purposes. Jacob and the Man in Black. i felt the writers explanations were extremely vague or made no sense at all and they threw in all this mish-mash of religious, existential and philosophical symbolism and never really explained what it all meant or at least what it meant to this story. i guess maybe a re-watch is in order to see if i can figure out what the main meaning of it all was. sure it was entertaining to watch but in the end i was kinda left a little dumbfounded as to what it all meant?

Kyle from Kentucky said...

When the show was on the air I always watched the interviews all of the actors did and I always respected the actors that were into the show and really seemed to enjoy the work they were doing. Some examples...

Michael Emerson, Daniel Dae Kim, Jorge Garcia, Josh Holloway, Elizabeth Mitchell, Nestor Carbonell were some of the actors I thought really enjoyed their work and their character and the show itself. So I always respected them more.

To me IMO Henry Ian Cusick just seemed to be there for the vacation and the paycheck. But I don't really know just my opinion.

Terry O'Quinn seeemed to be really into the show in general but also complained a lot.

Harold Perrineau also seemed to me to be very into it and complained for all the right reasons.

Although I hate the character Matthew Fox always gave his all into acting and into becoming that character and even though he seems like the same asshole in real life I appreciate his dedication to the role.

By far and away the actor/actress that i despised the most (which has nothing to do with my opinion of the character) was Evangeline. She never understood a thing about any of the show she always bitched a lot and I just couldn't stand her attitude in general. She was an absolute nobody and obviously this show made her. Get over yourself.

Of course I do not have a clue about what happened behind the scenes I just read everything and watched every interview these people did in that period of time.

I'll also never forgive AAA for leaving the show because god forbid who would want to work and live in Hawaii???? What a great character Eko was. And shame on you for not accepting a role in the finale... argh

MeriJ said...

Kyle, you saw more of those interviews than I did, so I trust your assessment.

What I notice when I watch came-out-of-nowhere actors like E. Lilly being interviewed is how not ready for prime time some of them are. Some are naturals at the celeb game and have only a little bit to learn.

But many seem uncomfortable and demonstrate it in a variety of ways. Affected nonchalance about the sudden fame or the vehicle that brought them is one of the obvious telltales.

I’m agreeing with you, btw, because it’s a clear sign of immaturity, especially when they are supposed to be out there promoting the show. There’s no other way to say it: a professional who doesn’t support his or her team is not a class act – at least not yet.

All I’m saying is that it’s a pretty weird experience to be a celebrity in America. I can only imagine the stupid shit I might have said if I had been suddenly famous -- for almost nothing -- back in my idiotic youth.

At 53, I like to think I could handle it better now. (So bring it on, already. Time is running out here, guys. Ditto for the obscene wealth. I'm sooo ready.)

Anonymous said...

vlavelle42@yahoo.com
wow, i just had the misfortune of stumbling upon a site call 'shitbisquitland' in which your site was being trashed.....gotta say it was pretty vitriolic and bitter stuff from someone who believes they got ALL the epic moments,chemistry, the best 'love' scenes (LOL) as well as endgame of the show!!! As i read this swill my head started to explode like that dude in 'Scanners'. whoever this person is who is writing this swill they are obviously insanely obsessed and EXTREMELY angry over an outcome they wanted becoming a reality! what's the deal with that? does anybody know? just curious who this deranged soul might be? more than half her/his arguments were flawed to such a degree and had no basis in reality of any sort. and seriously LOST is a work of fiction! why does he/she/it write like just because they got that inexplicable Jate endgame (which they only got because of the popularity of Suliet) that the whole damn world has been saved from some kind of an apocalypse. i love Sawyer/Kate but if they HAD been endgame i seriously don't think i'd be running around being pissed off about it. The 'writer' of shitbisquitland needs to go to like jate rehab or something. do they have that? LOL

Anonymous said...

@vlavelle42@yahoo.com

Maybe that blog was created by Damon Lidelof himself. :D

Anonymous said...

vlavelle42@yahoo.com

HAHA....wouldn't surprise me if it was, come to think of it! ;)

Anonymous said...

" insanely obsessed and EXTREMELY angry over an outcome they wanted becoming a reality! "

Yeah, vlavelle42@yahoo.com, that doesn't apply to any posters here.... right?

Kyle from Kentucky said...

@ anonymous

I personally feel like I have the right to be "insanely obsessed and EXTREMELY angry over an outcome".....I felt was not the right outcome because of the years I dedicated to watching LOST and researching all the little tidbits and debating with everyone online about it... only to be extremely let down.

I may have argued opinions but I never told anyone their opinion was irrelevant because they were too obsessed with it.

Here is a fact though not an opinion: Damon wasted a lot of peoples' time making us think he had a transcendant message to send. The only message he sent was the Jack was the most important and you other characters are unimportant. Find your schmoopie and wait for Jack! What an ending. Sheer Brilliance!

MeriJ said...

If you're talking about "Shitbiscuits: The Hall of Shambles," it doesn't look like anything has been posted there since last May. Mostly those were 2010 rants.

Idjits will be idjits. Just ignore them.

MeriJ said...

It really doesn't make sense to get into long debates with people who have nothing to say -- especially when you consider that even a eleven-year old boy can create a blog or post at other blogs.

If you were having that debate face to face, you'd know that.

(The beauty of the Internet is that if they DID have something interesting or challeging to say, then their age wouldn't matter. Which is pretty cool.)

Anonymous said...

@Anonymous Jater that said that my statement didn't apply to anyone here....right? well on this board are posters who are upset and angry over an ending they found inexplicable. my point was that over at shitbisquitland what the hell is the poster so pissed off about???? she/he got the ending she/he was satisfied with so why all the vitriolic hatred (and flawed logic) that she/he/it ranted about????

MeriJ said...

Hating is a stimulant. There doesn't need to be a reason.

Anonymous said...

Hi. 95% of the questions in LOST have been answered. The problem is that the meaning is so deep and secret, that a large percent of the population will not be able to see that deeply. I can give you an answer to almost every question you pose on your season finale review. It is my personal opinion that you are SO deeply misunderstanding the finale that I am just amazed at what I am reading and I cannot even believe it! This show obviously came out ahead of its time by a lot of years. I see what you are saying, and I could not disagree more. There is very deep occult meaning that most lost fans are not seeing. Whether this is intended or not it is there. If you are not misunderstanding it, I think that you have purposely typed a bad review for whatever reason.

Anonymous said...

vlavelle42@yahoo.com

okay Anonymous.....tell us what the 'deep, transcendental' meaning of LOST was??? tell us what 'we' didn't understand! If you know, then please share it with us :)

MeriJ said...

Yes, do share. My fragile mind is waiting to be blown.

Anonymous said...

I will indeed share with you as per your request. But it will take a little time. Very soon I am going to reread the final season recap and answer all the questions I see.. I did not mean to come off as negative or cocky. I can tell the way the person of this website has put this together has taken a lot of time and energy and I am surely not dissing him but I do not agree with him at all when it comes to the final season and final episode. I actually love all the neat LOST pictures and the way he has shared his recaps with us all. It is brilliant in its own. By November 1st I will have answered all the questions, so check back. I am no extreme expert but I know that things have been answered without being directly answered. And that there are a lot of 'hidden' things that I will be able to explain.

Pa said...

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1673263/planet-b-boy-chris-brown.jhtml


Does Josh Holloway's agent hate him?! Because his career is going downwards at the speed of light.

Anonymous said...

isn't he in that new mission impossible movie that's coming out? i think mission impossible:ghost protocol.

his agent should have had him try out for romantic leads back in the early seasons of LOST, because he would have been a hot leading man on the big screen!

Pa said...

His role in Mission Impossible is small and his character might die early judging by the trailer.

Apart from that, his role choices after Lost have been awful. His career may have had potential, but he's been making all the wrong decisions.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I peronally did not misunderstand any of the answers that LOST ended up giving away. I was simply blown away with the simplicity of them. I expected PROFOUND answers that were supposedly planned for years then to be inspired and amazed by them. Because the way the mysteries and stories began, they felt that important. But became not so important.

I don't need answers to the questions. I need someone way more brilliant than Damon Lindelof to redo the 6th season. Because it wasnt LOST like LOST was supposed to be.

MeriJ said...

This is old news but new to me. I have never seen the JJ Abrams show, "Fringe," but read this statement at wikipedia:

A final step taken was to script out all of the major long-running plot elements, including the show's finale, prior to full-time production. Abrams contrasted this to the process used in Lost, where ideas like character flashbacks and the hatch from the second season were introduced haphazardly and made difficulties in defining when they should be presented to the viewers.

Instead, with Fringe, they were able to create "clearly defined goalposts" (in Itzkoff's words) that could be altered as necessary with network and seasonal changes but always provided a clear target for the over-arching plot.

Also this article from 2008 (copy the whole link):

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/24/arts/television/24itzk.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

Anonymous said...

After I read this again to me it sounded like a very long and clever joke. And that I just turned it around the opposite.

In a lot of ways LOST is based of Earth.
The Island, well, lets just say anyone who made it to the island was very special.
Beside of course, those who manipulated their way to the island, that is a big no no.
The Island was a place where people from Earth, were who were chosen to 'ascend to a higher dimension'
were tested their final time.The Island, was the final test. Other people it was not their turn,
that was why you could not have a baby on the island, it would die because it was not chosen to ascend yet,
not without genuine 'love'. As you can see, The Island very much dictated if
you were going to be stuck as a voice there, or get your chance to walk through the door of light at the end. If you
did bad on the island there were many options, one was becoming a voice that gets stuck on the island such as Michael. This
can also be viewed as a redemption, as he is able sooner able to have his 'final test' and incarnation back to the island faster
than some people who still remain on Earth.The show actually sets up perfectly for a new show to be born.

Sayid did not see Nadia, and rather saw Shannon, because, once you walk through that door, you could have to wait millions of
years, to find that one person who 'made it to the island'. This of course all based off the idea that the island is very special,
and people would expend an extraordinary large amount of money to get to it if it were real. Was not Nadias turn.

Michael is a voice stuck on the island like others who have basically messed their chance up but still get to chill out on the island,
awaiting their next incarnation on the island.

It was Jacks connection to all the losties that also made them special. He IS the main character of the show, and the most important
followed closely by Locke/flocke, Christian Sheppard, the guardian of the Island and the Island itself.

Walt was special because Walt was a child on the island and it is more rare to go through the final test as a kid.

I think the reason why they answered the "Adam and Eve" questions because it was actually important. It would be one of the few
questions I would really wonder about during my rewatches.

The burden of 'becoming' Jacob, is that you HAVE to guard the island. You don't get to walk through the door at the end. Someone
bestowed Jacobs mom with that power, who gave it to Jacob AND MIB, until MIB blew it Jacob rightfully so took it into his own hands.
Lets just say that the Island has been there a really really long time, and that there were a lot of people before Jacobs mom who
were protecting the island.

The losties were special because Jacob the guardian of the Island chose them to 'fix' The Island. And that's exactly what they did.

If Claires baby was raised by another on the island, it surely would have died on the island. Claire went crazy because the
lonliness on the island by herself, starting to believe that 'they' took her baby. Becoming in a trace or prolongued delusional
state.

Everyone on the plane at the end of the final episodes dies. There is a time activated c4 on it that was left there by Widmore,
who left it there to stop the MIB from escaping the Island.


Libby, Ana Lucia, Eko were all either bad people or not ready.

Eloise sort of plays the part of the advisor or Jacob of Earth. She chooses to remain behind.

Major WTF moments. Vincent guards The Island at the end of the show. And evolves into a doggy that can
walk on 2 feet and talk. Ben is the final one to walk into the door out of all the people at the end, he walks
in because he knows that John and Jacob forgave him. I don't think The smoke monster is really dead.


The End.

MeriJ said...

Thanks. That was amusing. No point in quibbling with details -- you'll never convince me that Shannon was "special" or more worthy to ascend than Nadia, etc. -- but it was a fun read.

Anonymous said...

Maybe Shannon was chosen by Jacob too. And Nadia wasn't. Sucks doesn't it! LoL!

MeriJ said...

That bad boy, Jacob. Perhaps Shannon was there to encourage Sayid to let go of his true love Nadia and get with the program. And then die, dammit.

Either that or Maggie Grace slept with someone who sleeps with someone who was owed favors by the person who did the casting of lesser characters. One of the true "Jacobs" of the island.

Pa said...

LOL @MeriJ's last reply.

You should do an entire post explaining all the finale 'resolutions'.

FB's blog was a great source of humor too back in the day.

MeriJ said...

I do miss Fish's biting humor. Does she recap or blog on anything else?

Pa said...

@MeriJ, I guess Fish decided not to recap any other shows after Lost.

Maybe she could do a "what really happened" recaps of some Lost episodes about all the real and imaginary (your Maggie Grace bit :D ) factors that influenced the writing.

Anonymous said...

vlavelle42@yahoo.com

did anonymous ever give us our Nov 1st deadline thesis about the 'transcendental' meaning of LOST? did it ultimately have one?

i still think making Jack the main character was a complete lack of foresight on the writer's part being that he really wasn't at all interesting compared to any one of the other characters, particularly Locke, who knew from day one the island was 'special'. Why pick one character, why not make it about ALL of them! after all, ALL of them were CHOSEN, not just Jack and he only took the job for about 10 minutes, long enough for Kate to rid the island of smokey.

what was the meaning, that eventually we are all gonna land up on this island as our final test before we can go onto a self-created purgatory (that we won't be aware we are creating) before we can move on to the next level with our 'lovah', who can only be someone else who was chosen to be on the island....oh please!

what connection did that crazy purgatory have with mystery island?
And someone (i believe it was the person who offered us an explanation on the ultimate meaning of the show) said the plane at the end never made it anywhere. that nobody got back to the 'real' world and lived out the rest of their lives. where did you get that theory from? that's not canon for the show! Darlton specifically says that those people got to live out the rest of their lives and at some later time in the future (long after Jack died) they eventually died and made it up to limbo-land!

idk, but if that was the explanation of what LOST was about, well i guess you can keep it because i don't see any kind of transcendental meaning. i wanna know what this island was? what it means to humanity as a whole? Is there a God connection to the island? what would happen to mankind if the 'light' went out and why would anything happen? who (GOD, ALIENS, JACK) who created THIS ISLAND????

Maybe the show was just meant to be entertaining, and it was, but i really find it hard to recommend it to anyone else to watch because i can't tell them that it will make any kind of sense to the most rational mind or the most philosophical mind! it just doesn't

as FBLND says-it was tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing! Faulkner's head would of exploded if he saw LOST!

Anonymous said...

Some people expect a lot from Lost, and perhaps the creators led you to that thought. But it was enough for me. Hugely entertaining and thought provoking 6 seasons -- as much as I can ask of any show. Resolved enough issues to satisfy me.

Peace

MeriJ said...

Well said.

Anonymous said...

"Resolved enough issues to satisfy me."

And the finale resolutions did nothing to satisfy me.

It's nice that you feel six years were worth it. I wish I could too.

The way Lost ended disappointed me mythology, character and ship-wise.

Anonymous said...

There are a great many minor/major issues people can have with this series and its conclusion but I'm sick of seeing people complain about the sideways world and the church/light ending. Every time I see someone attach "cop out" to the LOST finale I just SMH. Science vs Faith was a constant theme THROUGH OUT the series. The faith aspect was ALWAYS there. So why bitch when a faith based(spiritual) ending prevailed over the science(sci-fi) ending?

Just throwing that out there

Pa said...

People have the right to bitch about whatever they disliked on the show.

Personally, I always enjoyed the character episodes more and wanted Lost to be a show about a group of strangers learning how to live with each other on an island in the middle of nowhere.

But somewhere along the line the show totally switched its forcus and started revolving more and more around the sci-fi and mythology elements. They were all equally unappealing to me (the Dharma, the Others, time travelling, MIB etc). It seemed to me that critics and fanboys only enjoyed this aspect of the show.

So, what's my problem? The insistence that Lost was always about the characters. No, it wasn't. Characters were always there, but they started being just puppets - various plot devices and gottcha moments were the real protagonists of the show.

If this had been a character-driven show, then Claire would've had a very compelling season 6 arc. As it was, she was just an old character who reappeared with a weird hairdo. I bet Darlton gave more thought to her squirrel baby than to Claire's actual story and her psyche.

I loved the mini-arc (6 episodes which get a lot of flak, but which were mostly about the characters and relationships). You know, what Lost was supposedly always about.

I think it was cheap to switch from all those IMO annoying stories and elements and characters (Radzinsky, Horatio, the Temple), which completely took over the show - and then come in the last episode and say: guess what, it was all actually about the characters.

I wish it had been so, but it wasn't.

It's an insult to say Lost was a character-driven drama when there are so many shows out there that actually fit that description.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

"You cannot tweet this person because they have BLOCKED you."

Thats right. Blocked on twitter by Damon Lindelof. I just realized that I haven't read one of his tweets in a while and the guy tweets a lot more than your average person.

I wasn't immature or vulgar AT ALL about the things I actually tweeted the guy. Really he has made several degrading comments about "dumb fans" or many things like that that were pretty immature. Just seemed like a whiney pampered jerk. Now Carlton on the other hand has never done that at all. I've followed both of them for about two years and Carlton tweets a lot less, is much more entertaining, and only ever thanked LOST fans and never ever once bashed them. If he did I would have remembered it. But Damon has always come off as a punk on there.

Anyways I was never irrational or annoying I only probably replied to Damon about once a month for that year and a half post LOST until I either finally got to him or just said the 1 thing he didn't like to block me. I wasn't wanting attention in replying to his tweets I just, if he ever read them, wanted him to know there are many smart lost fans out there who were not happy with his final season and not putting up with his snarky childish comments. And if you have much knowledge of twitter then you should know he never replied to me he just said things like that in general.

Carlton - Classy guy
Damon - Brat

Pa said...

I'm surprised you even followed Lindelof and Cuse on Twitter.

It was always clear they didn't react to criticism, or even slightly opposing views, very well.

It would be fun to see Damon discuss Lost with a fan who disliked the show (not necessarily just the finale but other aspects too). I bet he couldn't handle a situation like that.

I would watch the shit out of a Damon vs. Fish confrontation.

Creators - (ex)fans face-off!

Anonymous said...

Kyle - really, why have you followed their tweets for 2 years? You've made it clear that you will never watch anything from them and you blame them for forever ruining your favorite show.

Time to let go.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

well i didnt follow them because of a cant let go of lost obsession i just followed them when there were announcements about lost back then and never bothered to unfollow them. im not an obsessive twitter person and i certainly did not read everything just saw some snarky comments from damon that i responded to. but yes anonymous i am clearly way too obsessed might even need to see a psychiatrist because i never bothered to unfollow damn and also because i replied to a handful of his tweets. anonymous people on this blog are just better than everyone else really.

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