Sunday, June 6, 2010

THE LAST WORD ON LOST



"Heaven,
Heaven is a place,
a place where nothing,
nothing ever happens."
- Talking Heads

What should be the last word on LOST? Cheesy? Lame? Cliched? Cheap? Vapid? Insulting? All good options, but I think there's really only one word that ends up describing what LOST became in the end.



Stupid.

I'm not trying to be smug, but I predicted it would turn out like this. I knew it. I think we all did. It didn't happen all at once, but gradually the sloppiness and laziness of this much anticipated season became obvious. There was the wrong date on Aaron's sonogram, then Kate's name not being on the cave ceiling even though it supposedly was on the cave ceiling, the pointless Temple subplot, the Stargate Lighthouse, finally the awkward, stiff, so bad it made me cry scene where Michael was trotted out to give the lamest possible explanation for the whispers.



This scene was when it hit me. I can pinpoint it as the exact moment in time when I knew that this grand finale season was going to suuuuuuuuuuck. I didn't want to accept it just then but as the weeks went by, there was no escaping the reality.



As LOST's finale season careened to its dreadful clusterfuck of a conclusion, carrying the reputation of a once great series on its back, even The Darlton tried to warn us away from hoping for too much. They started to say stuff like this:



"We're going to get killed," said executive producer Damon Lindelof.

They'd been all but screaming from the rooftops that we wouldn't be getting any goddamn Answers. It was all about the characters, yo. Those stupid questions were all red herrings! Not just the big ones, like Walt and Aaron and the Numbers. All of them!



At times they got downright insulting about it:


Not only did Damon inadvertently describe the process by which American kids grow up both stupid and fat, but he made it clear exactly how much respect he had for his audience. Which is to say - he thought we were chumps. He thought we weren't really interested in answers to the gajillion questions he'd posed. We didn't want to see the design behind the mysteries and characters revealed in a brilliant fashion that would reward us for our years of devotion. All we really wanted was cheap, generic junk food. So that's the way he ended his series.

To be fair, we should acknowledge that putting together a great series finale is a daunting project. The history of tv finale success is spotty. There are the famously poignant.



The famously funny.



The infamously awful.



The controversial



And the sublime.


Obviously the boy wonders knew everything LOST had ever been was hanging in the balance on May 23. Carlton Cuse himself described the metric by which he knew they'd be judged.


We don’t know whether the resolution between the two timelines is going to make people say, “Oh, that’s cool” or “Oh, fuck those guys, they belly-flopped at the end.”

So which was it? Cool? Or a belly flop?


I've been MIA the last third of this wretched finale season. It turns out it's not really much fun to hate on something that you once loved. It feels terrible actually.



I'm embarrassed to remember how naively I approached this season, described by Cuse as a precious Christmas present they were going to slowly let us unwrap. I even went back last fall and recapped the glorious Season One in excrutiating detail, believing the hype that we were finally about to revisit that masterpiece and watch all its mysterious potential be fulfilled.



I tried to imagine how cool, how fun, how satisfying, it would be to see the big clock come together under the hands of the master watchmakers.


Instead what we got were gears and springs and meaningless numbers strewn all over the floor like a fish kill of red herrings, while the "watchmakers" mocked the audience for ever mistaking them for people who cared. Yes, if you're wondering, I do feel kind of stupid. I had faith in these two bozos. What can I say?


As tempting as it may be, it's probably wrong to blame Darlton. After all, it was our own choice to keep watching. We decided all on our own to imagine that we were playing some kind of puzzle. No one told us to expect that! Why would we think that a story about six magical numbers that were magically connected to cataclysmic events, or a story about an island where diseases are cured but pregnancy kills, or a story that wove intersecting timelines into a vast interdimensional web of coincidences and fate - why would we think any of that was meant to be a puzzle??? We must really be stupid!


It was our own free choice to gabble away on message boards these last few seasons talking about wormholes and string theory and exotic matter and Schrodingers goddamn cat. We did it long after it became obvious that these two guys weren't able to write that kind of story. It was obvious they weren't quantum physicists. Or even the kind of guys who passed physics in high school.



No one told us we had to prattle like morons about determinism and gnoticism and Manicheism and Buddhism and Catholicism and Egyptology and Philip V. Dick. I mean look at these two guys. Why would we think they had some kind of wisdom to offer?


You know who these two really remind me of now? The two con men who pretended to be tailors in Hans Christian Anderson's The Emperor's New Clothes. They convinced the dopey Emperor he was getting a new set of gorgeous threads, but really he just ended up walking down the street with everyone laughing at the pimples on his butt. The Emperor, it turns out, was us.

At least we were in good company. In the days after the finale, I got calls and emails from pretty much every family member, friend, frenemy or casual acquaintance who had ever loved LOST, or knew that I once did. There were sighs, sad shakes of the head, muttered expletives, viral video exchanges and the always hilarious fancraft that LOST fans had raised to an artform.



The consensus was unanimous:



But how did the finale fare out in the land of media, both old and new? Did they stick their landing or did they ...

?

I realize there were some in the fast food media who, as expected, were bowled over by the cliche overload of the finale. USA Today not only found it "thrilling", " clever" and "profound", but they mocked those of us who'd bought into that silly mystery crap.
If you were looking for explanations for every twist and turn, you didn't get them. (Some viewers won't be satisfied until the producers churn out a multi-volume island manual that answers questions that were never actually posed.)
And as expected, both "I live next door to Damon" Kristin dos Passos and Cheerleader in Chief Jeff Jensen dissolved into predictably soggy heaps of teary satisfaction.
“The End” was an emotionally draining epic that had me crying with almost every single “awakening” and has left me mulling the true significance of the Sideways world, which was revealed to be a Purgatory-like realm created by the souls of the dead castaways themselves. (Purgatory! The irony!) I was so happy The Island was saved. I was so moved by Jack’s heroism and sacrifice and the glorious significance of ending where he began, as well as that Doubting Thomas allusion there at the end. … I loved Ben’s contrition. I loved Locke’s forgiveness. I loved it when Ben told him to stand up and walk again, and Locke did.


But if Darlton let themselves listen to anyone other than their friends in lowbrow places, they probably realized they're going to have to stay in that bunker a little bit longer than anticipated. The New York Times trashed it on both the Arts page:
But you have to think that the gauzy, vaguely religious, more than a little mawkish ending of ‘Lost’ – “Touched by a Desmond” — will not sit well with a lot of the show’s fans. ... The “Sopranos” finale was ambiguous and a bit of a shrug, but not puzzling; to me the “Lost” finale, in the immediate aftermath, felt forced and, well, a bit of a cop-out.


and the Editorial section:
Across six seasons, it’s true, we learned endless facts about the island — about its geography, its inhabitants, and what had happened on it across decades and centuries. But we never learned the whys behind the facts. And with the final season in the books, there’s good reason to think that we never learned them because the show’s creators never had a well-thought-out “why” for their story in the first place. The island wasn’t a real mystery — it was just a MacGuffin.


Max Read at Gawker thought "The Lost Finale was incredibly Dumb", which pretty much sums up the consensus of my inner circle:
Once upon a time, there was a television show about a bunch of people on an island. For six years it was one of the most fascinating things on TV. And then it ended, in the worst way possible. ... Lost ended tonight, and with it the hopes and dreams of millions of people who thought it might finally get good again. SPOILER ALERT: It didn't. What did we learn? Nothing. We learned nothing from two-and-a-half hours of slow-motion bullshittery backed with a syrupy soundtrack.


Televisionary's Jace Lacob tried really hard to hide his disappointment in this piece at The Daily Beast, but he couldn't quite do it.
“The End” didn’t so much answer the long-dangling mysteries—Why do pregnant women die on the island? Why was the character of Walt (Malcolm David Kelley) special? What is this island? What was with all of the Egyptian hieroglyphics? What was the character of Desmond’s ultimate purpose on the island?—as it did ignore them altogether....Considering how much time viewers have spent trying to figure out the relationship between the island timeline and the Sideways one, it is also frustrating that it turned out that there is none—or more precisely, that what happened in the Sideways timeline didn’t affect what happened on the island at all.


Aside from coining the pithiest descripiton of the finale - "a prom of the dead in a chapel of love where everybody is farting rainbows" - Chadwick Martin of Slate nailed one of the finale's main flaws:
There are second chances in life, but there are no do-overs. At least all the time travel, the donkey wheels, the smoke monsters were vehicles to explore the human condition. They were as fantastical as purgatory, yes, but they were also grounded in the terrestrial realities of life, death, and the pursuit of happiness. The show's purgatorial clusterfuck is not. It is a venue for wish-fulfillment. Thus, the finale wronged not just me, but the show itself.

As did Laura Miller at Salon :
A series like "Lost" doesn't need to solve all of its riddles, but it does need to address the right ones.... The comic-book paraphernalia and texture of the island -- its secret bunkers with their code names, Jacob's migrating cabin with its creepy paintings, the ersatz normality of the Others' compound ringed by those sonic pylons and the fantastically mechanical grinding and dragging sounds that used to accompany the appearance of the smoke monster -- were not peripheral to the heart of "Lost." They were the very essence of its appeal.
And the message of the Hero Quest in mythology is certainly not the gauzy, happy, angels-at-the-doorway one "Lost" fans had to settle for last night. Once Jack stepped into the church it looked like he was walking into a Hollywood wrap party without food or music -- just a bunch of actors grinning idiotically for 10 minutes and hugging one another.

Scott Mendelson's fine essay, republished at The Huffington Post, decided that the finale was so bad that it managed to nullify the series almost as a whole, although he - like me - hopes it will still be possible to enjoy the first three seasons before this series started its sad, end date driven decline:
By leaving everything unanswered right up to the end, and then pulling a narrative switcheroo instead of finishing the story that was being unveiled, Lost basically mocked those who bothered to watch from the very beginning, as such rabid viewership proved entirely unnecessary. Thus, the finale of Lost rendered the entire series run relatively pointless and effectively killed any and all rewatchability of the prior episodes. So, in the end, Lost ended for me with season three.
With all that and so much more being said, is there really any point in me writing anything else about this sad spectacle ? Is there anything left that really needs to be said? I'm over it. I could live without never giving LOST another thought. I'm literally itching to erase it off my dvr. But I promised I'd do this. Inquiring minds seem to want to know what it all meant to me. So, here we go, one last time, for old time's sake.


I think others have pretty much covered the shameful way we were taunted with questions that were never intended to be answered, even as recently as the run-up to this season. They were running full speed ahead right up until late April, not only implying that we'd be rewarded for our detective work, but throwing new questions at us! Of course everyone was excited to see what the answer to the puzzles would be. And then we got this:


The superclunker episode Across the Sea. We found out the only thing worse than getting no answers was getting the LAME answers they came up with. Why did they even bother to answer the pointless Adam and Eve "mystery", for instance? Was that at the top of anyone's mind? As compared to things like - who bankrolled all Ben's trips off the Island, who was Penny's mother, why did Libby give Desmond a sailboat, what was the sickness, why did Rousseau's crew hear the numbers on the radio, why did Claire leave Aaron ... not to mention all those silly little trifles like why was Walt so special and why did pregnant women die and what the hell was up with those numbers? But nope. They didn't feel the need to address any of those mysteries. They needed to give us a bogus backstory for two skeletons that almost no one remembered. Why?



My guess is because Damon had stupidly bragged about it back in 2007:
Of course, in his hamfisted way, he managed to prove exactly the opposite. It added nothing to that remembered moment to find out that Jacob, the 40,000 year old virgin, buried his bad twin and his another raising mother in the cave after a night of interfamily murder. We just met these people. They meant nothing to us.



Their story was tacked on, like everything else in Season Six. In fact, the whole finale could have been slapped on at any random endpoint. It wasn't a culmination or an inevitability or a hard earned catharsis. The message that after death we'll all live happily ever after with our bestest BFFs could have been, as one reviewer noted, a perfectly good finale for Saved by the Bell or Happy Days. Or a kiddie cartoon, for that matter.



What's more, by bottom loading all the mysteries and saving them for the end, rather than building them organically into the fabric of the story, they belied the pretense that they were master storytellers. A good story needs pacing. I had assumed their need for a fixed end date was in order to allow them to pace their story. But we all know now that had nothing to do with it.


We could tell that Mama Clegg was not the Island's Eve. She was only another interim hermit guardian, just like Jacob. Someone came before her, maybe the people that carved the cuneiform marks into the big stone plug. Someone before Momsy built the light sealing contraption inside the big shiny hole. Who was that person? Why did they do it? We never really learned why the Island was special, what was the source of its power, what its power really was. We never learned why the Smoke Monster had to be contained on the Island, what would have happened if he'd escaped. We entered the final battle of the story without knowing the stakes.



We just knew it was really important for Jack. Because he used to be a man of science. And now he is a man of faith. Faith in the Island. OK. But why?


The story never created any meaningful metaphor for the Island. It was the "warmest, brightest light you've ever seen or felt." It was a little piece of "something that's inside of every man." The enemy was "evil incarnate". It would all "only end once", except that - since Hurley became Jacob - it didn't! It was a myth that was never told, a myth, if we can even call it that, that never coalesced into anything more than mawkish abstractons. It meant nothing. It was just pretty pictures.



What's more, the characters themselves experienced no consequences. The very same second that The Great Jacksus laid down his life, he was handed his eternal reward. His sacrifice wasn't a sacrifice at all, just the last step in him being handed all the presents and goodies and heavenly lollipops that anyone could ever dream of.



It was a pretty sweet deal. Save the world and go straight to heaven. Doesn't really tug at my heartstrings. Or make me feel anything at all. No stakes. No consequences. No metaphor. No myth.




But all this ground has been covered, and better, by others. Few disagree that in the end the LOST "storytellers" failed in their central mission - to pull together a coherent and satisfying end to the mysteries they themselves had chosen to create. But I was surprised to see how many, at least in the immediate aftermath, seemed to think that the finale succeeded in a different area - that of giving resolution to the characters. It became like the one good thing people could say about LOST - that it was a terrible ending, but at least the characters all got "satisfying resolutions". I don't know where they're seeing that. Maybe people just need to convince themselves that it couldn't possibly be as bad as it all really, really was.



To be fair, not everyone was fooled. But far too many were. If I have to pick what I consider to be the Number One Inconvenient Truth about the LOST Finale, it would be this:

It was NOT "about the characters."

The biggest secret that Darlton managed to hide from us was that the characters never really mattered. At all. Yes, LOST had a great cast of mostly wonderful actors, who emoted the shit out of the material they were given to work with, even if it was often insane nonsense. But charismatic acting is not the same thing as good characterization.


I think the primary failure of LOST's end story was its failure to respect and resolve its characters. Except for Jack, none of the characters got any better resolution than the mysteries did.



Let's start with a somewhat minor, but nonetheless pivotal, character. Claire and her baby, who she'd been apocalyptically warned must not be raised by another, seemed to be mystically connected to the Island.


But then Claire dropped Aaron in a cabbage patch. He got raised by another anyway. And Claire became a crazed axe murderer.




That was her character arc. We never saw how she went crazy. We never saw what happened when Aaron got his Mad Mama back. We missed every interesting thing that Claire's story could ever have been about. All we know is that Claire eventually died and re-birthed Aaron in her self created purgatory while she waited for her big brother Jack to arrive, so she could spend eternity with Charlie - the guy whose death she never even mourned.



How was this character arc resolved? What is satisfying about this characterization? How is it even a characterization? It's a collection of cutesy coincidences - She's Jack's sister! She's crazy like Rousseau! Only worse! - that ultimately went nowhere and meant nothing.


Ok, maybe you say Claire's a bad example, because she wasn't an important enough character. Let's take the great John Locke then. Because no one can say Locke wasn't an important character. How did this great character get his resolution in the finale?



Well, basically he stayed dead.



Until Jack came to fix him.



John Locke, who so wanted to be special and who came to the Island and had his legs magically restored and who had a child's faith in the beautiful Island and who tried and failed to convince Jack to stay and who left what he loved and sacrificed his life for the sake of his Island - his "resolution" was that he got to wait in Limbo Land until Jack - freaking Jack - got around to not only dying, but to accepting that he was dead.



Locke's character "resolution" was to further the glory of Jack, even in death. What once seemed like an epic duel between equally matched protagonists went out with a weak, faint sounding pfffffffft. By the time the big showdown happened, Locke wasn't even there.


Like so much of the audience, Locke got screwed. Sorry, John, you were just road kill on the Highway to Jack's Heaven.



But don't worry. Be happy! It's not like there's anything we can do about it now. Except maybe this ...



Sun and Jin's "resolution" came at the end of three long seasons wherein they both did, collectively, nothing.



Finally they reunited. Then they died the next day, with not even a passing acknowledgment of the daughter who had been at the heart of their story. In Purgatory, or Limbo, or whatever the hell that Sideways bullshit was, they had to wait - for Jack, of course - until they could speak English (the language of Jack's heaven) and follow their dear leader into the light.



We can also add Sayid to the list of screwed over characters.



In post-9/11 America, it was shocking to see an Iraqi soldier in the Revolutionary Guard presented as a sympathetic character. But Sayid worked his way into our hearts, despite being the sickest killer in the bunch, because he was a passionate man. Who loved Nadia.



Nadia was at the nexus of all his moral quandaries - he betrayed his country for her, he betrayed his boyhood friend for her, he struggled off the Island and married her, only to lose her again. And with her death, he lost his soul. His character resolution? Well, first - of course - he had to wait for Jack. Obviously. Then ... uh ... he hooked up with Shannon and he got to go to Heaven!



Did this make sense to anyone???? Was this supposed to be a joke?


Sadly no. They were serious about this shit. See, Sayid didn't really love the woman he'd devoted his life to, the woman his entire story had been about. He only wanted what all men want in Geekland - a blonde American babe.


Hurley apparently lived out his roly poly life on the Island, maybe for centuries, with Ben. Although that might have made a great season of LOST all by itself, we never got a glimpse of it.



Instead we learned that the only great thing in Hurley's extremely long life was Libby, the girl he once almost went on a picnic with the day before she got shot. Nothing else. So once he finally died, he - like everyone else - waited for Jack, and then finally, I guess, he got to have a girlfriend, even if they were both dead.


Sawyer's story ended in Season Four.


We had watched his evolution, one of the most beautiful in the show,



from guilt ridden, self loathing orphan to passionate lover and hero.



But in Season Four, fanboys everywhere rejoiced as Sawyer's hotness got sucked away and he was reincarnated as a neutered Deputy Dawg, flashing big buttery grins at his tall blond Dharma-wife.



And that was it for poor Sawyer. He got to scream and cry while Juliet died ... over and over again ... then he sat on his ass until it was time for Jack to save the world. Then he did absolutely nothing for all the rest of his life until it was time for the most anticlimactic and uninspired cup of coffee in tv history. And then he hugged Jack, and he too got to pass through the pearly gates.



Character? Resolution? I can't find either one in this story. The complex, charismatic character that stole my heart and first addicted me to LOST disappeared the day he jumped off the helicopter and saved the life of the woman he loved. I watched and I hoped and I put up with Carlton's insulting insinuations that we were only watching to see him take his shirt off, but the Sawyer that I loved never ever returned to LOST.



Kate didn't do any better. We don't know when she died but we know she never met anyone better than Jack. That's sad enough. You didn't deserve that, Kate.



This is where the poor character development leads straight into The Second Inconvenient Truth About the Lost Finale:

It had a very depressing message.

In order to believe in whatever the Shiny Happy Afterlife was meant to be, we have to believe that nothing that ever happened to Kate, Sawyer or Claire after they left the Island ever meant a damn thing. They had to wait TO DIE before they could live.



Well, technically, they had to wait for JACK to die before they could live again.


If we accept that the gang in the church had to be there together because they were the only people that truly mattered to one another, we have to realize that all these people lived HORRIBLE lives here on earth. Think of all those who didn't matter to them:



Charlie Hume didn't matter to his Mom and Dad, and neither did Ji Yeon, a fetus for all eternity.


Hurley didn't want to be with Grandpa Tito or Mami Carmen or any of the people who loved and raised him.

Helen was good enough for Locke's purgatory, but she didn't rank high enough to make it into his heaven.


Jack's alcoholic, philandering daddy was the High Holy Priest in his Heaven,



but the old Moms who put up with being married to this creep didn't rate any heavenly reward.



Sorry, Margo, your son just wasn't that into you.


Juliet had no place in her heaven for the sister and nephew she longed to see for so long.



Nadia? She was no biggie to Sayid. Just a passing fling.



Boone never had anyone in his life who meant anything to him at all and the greatest moment of Shannon's life were those few weeks she spent trying to breathe without her inhaler in the Rape Caves before she got shot in the gut.



Kate and Sawyer never missed their mothers either, or Tom, or Clementine, or Kevin, or each other.



The only thing this "heaven" proved is that all of these people lived sad, loveless lives on earth. But so what if life sucked for all the Losties? They got to be in a clean, perfect heaven with all the other pretty people, paired up like the giraffes and zebras on Noah's ark.



In the LOST credo, it turned out the only thing that ever matters in life is finding a Schmoopie. Parents, children, lovers, friends - none of it means a damn thing. The key to life is The Schmoopie.



Throughout the years, LOST made a big show of flashing various religious symbols at us like stolen watches from under a trenchcoat. The Church of Shiny Happy People felt like self parody, what with all the spiritual tchotchkes stuffed into every available corner.



A dharmachakra, an aum, a menorah, a Ganesh ... I guess they couldn't find space to shove in any voodoo chicken feet or Rasta spliffs or Wiccan wands.



But no one should have been fooled. The religious message of LOST was conventional Judeo-Christian group think of the most joyless kind.



Humans must unquestioningly accept the will of a capricious, often vicious Higher Power, because he's Jacob and you're not. Life's a bitch and then you die, but in the religion of LOST, once you find your Schmoopie ... and once the great St. Jacksus arrives of course ... even cold blooded killers can all go to Hollywood Heaven together.


Damon Lindelof: This is the critical mystery of the season, which is, “What is the relationship between these two shows? ... Where’s Libby? Where’s Ana Lucia? Where’s Eko? These are all the things that you’re supposed to be thinking about.

Got that? The only question Darlton cared about answering in their finale season, the ONLY one, was this: What was the Sideways universe? The Sideways that didn't even exist until this season. And what was the big revelation about the Sideways? That it was a completely separate, non intersecting, non connecting afterlife that the characters "created for themselves" while they waited to enter Heaven, or the light, or what the fuck ever. After swearing for years their story wasn’t about Purgatory, they made their finale season all about ... frigging Purgatory! Haha! Gotcha!



It's not that making the story about Purgatory would have been such a terrible idea. It could have been a coherent theme to carry over the seasons, showing us each person's passage to Enlightenment after their death. But this mish mosh didn't even make any kind of theological sense as Purgatory. What was the point of it, except to bide everyone's time until Jackie-poo arrived? Sawyer did not create a purgatory where he could repent for the murder of the innocent sweet shrimp seller.



Kate did not atone for the wrongs she'd done. In fact, she made herself a world where she was innocent, wrongfully accused. All that bad stuff? Nevah hoppened.



Charlie was still on the junk needle in his self created purgatory, only richer than Croesus this time around.



Sun and Jin for some reason created a purgatory where they were even more miserable, where Jin killed people and Sun got shot.



And Sayid apparently filled his self created purgatory with even more murders – I guess the ones he didn’t get around to committing in his killing spree of a life.



By creating a trite, pat purgatory, all the stories we'd invested in suddenly felt shallow and pointless. In one fell swoop, they managed to dishonor almost every character and render their stories meaningless. It didn't reflect the reality of our human experience, where all our acts have real consequences, where we don't have an escape hatch into paradise, like we found out the Losties had. But this purgatory had other problems as well. Basically it just didn't make any goddamn sense.



Was the highpoint of Aaron's life really the day he was born? It's hard to imagine how horrifying this poor kid's life was if the first six hours were the highlight. Or was Aaron just a symbol, not an actual human baby with a soul of his own? Even in death, was Aaron just a prop in Jack's Heaven?




Why was Eloise worried that Desmond would take Daniel away?



If she was "awake" and understood that she was dead, why was she still in purgatory? And why didn't she understand how it worked? She had been paired with her Schmoopie, so why couldn't she get on the Ark?



What was Ben waiting for? Did he need Danielle Rousseau to wake up too?



Because of course Danielle would want to spend eternity with the mouse faced creep who made her life a living hell, rather than the dearly beloved father of her child. She just hadn't woken up yet and realized who her true schmoop was.



Why wasn't Michael allowed into Jack's heaven? He blew himself up with a bomb just like Sayid did. Why did he have to be trapped on the Island as a whisper? Was it because he didn't have a Schmoopie?



And what about poor Walt? Not only wasn't he special in any way, but none of the other 815-ers wanted him in the heaven they created for themselves. Can you believe it? They wanted Libby there, but they didn't want Walt! They wanted Penny there and most of them didn't even know who she was! Boy, they really, really held that puberty thing against him, didn't they?



Why was Juliet Jack's wife?


Seriously. Why in the hell would she create that for herself? And why would she have an imaginary son with him? Forget about the realization that her precious sister actually never meant anything to her. I'm more hung up on that numbingly redundant candy machine conversation. When Miles listened to her dead body, remember that he heard her say "it worked"? What was she talking about? The bomb worked? Her hope to never have met Sawyer worked? No! She was talking about the candy machine of course!



When Sawyer unplugged it and plugged it back in, it worked! Wow! How clever was that? I mean, that's why we all stuck with LOST, wasn't it? For stupid gimmicky shout outs and conversations written entirely in cutesy catchphrases.



See? Look! It was an Apollo candy bar! And Number 23! Holy moly! My mind, she is blown! Darlton, you iz geniuses!



So the whole Sideways/Purgatory/Bullshitland that the characters "created" for themselves after death was not about Redemption (except for Jack.) And it wasn't about Free Will, one of the other alleged "themes" of LOST. The characters may have created this place, but they didn't know they were doing it, and they didn't know why they did it, and most of the connections they unwittingly created for themselves meant absolutely nothing in the final denouement, just like all the connections built into the pre-crash flight and the off Island world meant absolutely nothing.



LOST wasn't about connections at all, you see.



It was all about how many times you can pull a meaningless WhatTheFUCK plot twist on the audience. It turns out, you can pull an entire show out of your ass based on nothing but constant gotchas and contrivances, and you'll be able to fool ... well, a whole lot of people. For a really long time. Like for six years.



I think so far we’ve established one thing: Thinking about the LOST finale is not a useful exercise. The whole Man of Faith vs. Science debate, as presented on LOST, was designed to undermine the value of thought and contemplation, to degrade intellectualism. Just believe. Just have "faith". And what we were asked to have Faith in on LOST was ... Nonsense. On LOST, the Faith argument was used to hide lazy thinking and cheap storytelling. The only thing we were having Faith in all along was Chuck E. Cheese.



So here's another Inconvenient Truth that we learned from the finale:

LOST had no intellectual design behind it.

In the past if I'd seen this image of the Monster being thrown off the cliff:



I'd have dug out my favorite Dore print of Lucifer being thrown out of heaven. But at this point that feels like it would only be giving them a respect they don't deserve. I wasn't impressed that Jack's hicky turned out to be a mark from the tip of a knife. I really didn't care that Jack stumbled to his death from a wound to his right side, like the wound Doubting Thomas pondered in the picture Jack gazed at in 316. I can't be bothered to dig out images to illustrate these things. I get it. Symmetry. Mirrors.


I always did love the visual imagery of LOST, but you can't just throw random symbolic elements onscreen and call that a story.

By the end, LOST had lost all its intrigue for me, 100%. Without a story behind them, symbols alone feel superficial, and cloyingly facile.


I had given up on the idea that there was an intelligent design behind LOST's Famous Thinker Namedropping, but I was still dumbfounded by how incredibly facile and superficial the use of imagery became.




Not only could we tell that a man was good based on whether he was blond and blue eyed (Aryan=Good) and wearing a white tunic, but we could even tell the moral destiny of a baby by the color of his blanket! And see! They were playing a game. Like how the LOST writers were playing a game with us.


I can't have been the only one who misread Damon Lindelof's New York Times editorial some years ago. Remember how he had the audacity to lecture J.K.Rowlings on how she should end the Harry Potter books? I think a lot of people thought he was advising her to be brave, to do the unexpected, to do the unpopular. But re-reading that thing, it's obvious he was saying no such thing. In point of fact, he was laying out exactly the way he planned to end LOST - catering to what he considered to be the stupidity and short attention spans of the American public.
THE BOY WHO DIED...

"We Yanks, however, do not want froufrou endings. We want things definitively tied up. And by “things” I mean lots of people dead."
"We really like gratuitous explosions."


"Because if there’s one thing we like more than explosions, it’s surprises."

I kind of wish, as an American, that people like Damon wouldn't speak for what "we Yanks" appreciate. I'd just like to let the global audience out there know that not all Yanks tell their kids to shut up and eat cheese and not all Yanks are proud of being stupid and unimaginative.



I am one Yank who became totally enchanted by the "froufrou" of LOST's endless literary, religious, scientific and philosophical allusions. Yes, I gradually recognized that it was an exercise in futility, but I still hoped against hope that there was some bare bones design behind it all, some order to the chaos. But the truth is out now: There wasn't any. Ever.

In other words, they were saying that great minds in history had addressed great issues and told great stories ... but Lindelof and Cuse weren't trying to do that. They were just copycats. Who didn't have the skills. Sort of like this:



I think Darlton should have taken this full disclosure thing one step further. The writers who influenced them weren’t Lewis Carroll or James Joyce or C.S. Lewis. Come on, guys! Be honest. The literary influences in your writing room were more along these lines, right?


Killer the dog WAS. Now Killer was born to a three-legged bitch mother. And he was always ashamed of this, man. And then right after that, he's adopted by this man, Tito Liebowitz. He's a small-time gunrunner and, uh, rottweiler fight promoter. So he puts Killer into training, next thing you know Killer's GOOD! He is DAMN good! But then, he had the fight of his life. They pit him against his brother Nibbles. And Killer said, "No, man, that's my brother, I can't fight Nibbles!" And he made him fight anyway. And then Killer, Killed Nibbles. And Killer said, "That's it!" And he called off all his fights, and he started doing crack, and he ffffffff-FREAKED OUT. And then in a rage, he collapsed, and his heart... no longer beat. Wow.
Anyone who ever followed Damon Lindelof on Twitter, begging people to vote up LOST on some poll where it was losing out to Ghost Hunters or something, knows that this dude believed in the power of the button pushers. He said as much in another inadvertent admission hidden in that infamous NY Times editorial:
"I read an article recently saying that 80 percent of American poll respondents said they thought Harry wouldn’t survive the final book. As is the case in many polls, there’s probably a degree of wish-fulfillment here. In other words, we want the little bugger to die."
I don't see how poll watching could ever be a good practice in any creative enterprise. It seems to me that "conventional wisdom" is in itself the death knell of originality. But we do know the boy wonders liked to follow polls, and given the dumbassery of the LOST fandom, this may possibly explain how LOST managed to fail so utterly. Let's look for a minute at the kind of fans who truly and deeply loved this LOST finale. First of all there's people like this lovely young Jate fan:
Fuck you all, dirty whores. Yes I'm talking abotu real people because you suck and fail at life. I loathe you all haters, you deserve all the spit and shit on your faces as you can get for all those years trolling the internet. Our fandom doesn't have any respect? STFU you son of a bitch you! Keep fooling yourselves that Skate was eyefucking the whole season. You're only embarrasssing yourselves, even some decent skaters can see. Yes, there are sane skaters out there who appreciate them sanely.

These are your fans, Damon. You own them now. Don't look now, but they may be all you got left. We've learned now that fanmail campaigns and obsessive poll rigging pay off when the writers have neither balls nor any kind of plan. Sure, you managed to destroy your show's reputation and legacy, and sure, your name will be mud to any LOST fan who ever tried to follow the show on an intelligent level, but you did manage to satisfy geniuses like the poster quoted above. So, uh ... Congrats?



It would be wrong for me to blame the batshit Jate/Suliet fans entirely for how inane and angry the LOST online discourse became. By far the bigger culprits were the vicious, often misogynist fanboy types who camped out at the site run by my old friend DarkUFO. Given Darlton's addiction to pandering to the lowest common denominator in the fandom, there's no way they weren't aware of the whims of Fanboy Central. On that loud, big, spoiler whoring board, any sensible disagreement or alternate viewpoint about LOST was systematically shouted down, mocked to shit and banned out of existence by the torch and pitchfork carrying villagers.


It's sad to think that LOST was once considered cutting edge precisely because of the cyber-conversation that had grown up between fans and writers, a conversation that may have ultimately destroyed the integrity of the story. Laura Miller's Salon piece makes a great case for another Inconvenient Truth:

LOST was "Ruined By Its Own Fans"
From statements the producers of "Lost" have made over the past five years, they developed a dynamic with die-hard fans (and disillusioned fans and skeptical non-fans) that was infinitely more complex than any of the personal relationships among the series' characters. Could it be that in resisting the geekiest, nitpickingest, most Aspergerian demands of their audience they swung too far in the opposite direction, dismissing as trivial everything but the cosmic (the tedious and largely unnecessary Jacob-Smokey background) and the sentimental (making sure that every character receives his or her designated soul mate or therapeutic closure of the most banal Dr. Phil variety)? If so, "Lost" may be the quintessential example of a pop masterpiece ruined by its own fans.
Infintely more complex, indeed. DarkUFO was despised, and rightly so, by the LOST inner circle, because of his thoughtless and selfish spoiling of their big Season 3 and 4 finale surprises. So, was it REVENGE that made Darlton write an endgame that fanboys hated even more than Skaters? If so then the irony of Fanboys and Skaters being on the same side is delicious. Nice job, dudes.



Fanboys and Skaters were the natural enemies of the LOST Fan Kingdom. Aside from Andy Page's smarmy egotism, the defining feature of his site was his petty vindictiveness towards Skaters, most likely because we were the ones who unmasked him for the poll rigging liar and all around skeevebag that he was. How petty was he? I don’t think anyone outside of Fishbiscuitland quite understands. For years he lurked 24/7 on our board under his chosen alias:
mary2009!



Miss Mary mostly just used our site as one of the many from which he’d steal spoilers or pictures or media mentions, all of which he’d post on his own board without credit. But in the run up to the finale, his juvenile pettiness was on full display. One night, when I guess he was getting bored down in that basement bunker, he put on his best squealing imitation of what he thought a dumbass Skater fangirl would sound like:
I juust had my friends sister email me about the finale. She works on the set if LOST She told me that in the finale that Kate tells Jack she loves him Uve now given up on this show after the Juliet kiss scen
And then a few moments later:
They are sending me scans tomorrow. And they will send to dark UFO tomorrow as well I promise I am not lying and this is real I wish it was not: (((((((((
I busted him right away, explaining that even squalid fangirls were smart enough to trace an IP, and he ran straightaway, skirts flying over his head, to erase the evidence that he was, in fact, every bit the petty, juvenile twit we’d always known him to be. Apparently he didn’t want anyone to know that the great and powerful DarkUFO loved to troll among the squalid shippergirls he always claimed to despise. We banned the bastard after that, but Lord knows how many other sock puppets this douchebag had over the years, or how deeply into the pie his poll rigging fingers really were. It’s all water under the bridge now, thankfully – one more reason to be happy that LOST is over.


LOST is over, MaryAndy. Suck it up. You have to go out and get a job now.

MaryAndy may have just been one of the creepy curiosities of the LOST fandom, but his Skate Hate was something that was shared by most of the fanboys who followed LOST, including, it seems the Alpha Nerds who wrote this dreck. It brings me to one of the biggest downers of my LOST experience. Maybe it doesn't quite count as an Inconvenient Truth, but it's a Truth nonetheless.

Nerds hate romance.

In fact, I’m pretty sure that most nerds wouldn't know Romance if it jumped up and kissed them on the mouth. That’s part of what makes them nerds, after all. Sci Fi and Fantasy genres have never been a romance friendly milieu. Romance, when it appears at all, is generally very stilted and unrealistic, and caters to the male sensibility exclusively. Most women in this genre are blond. All women are beautiful, although beauty is completely optional for the male half. It is common, and preferable, in Nerd Romance, that the female abjectly worship her mate. Strangely, though, Nerd Romance rarely features ... s.e.x.



I'm sure many are wondering how I feel about Sawyer and Kate being left flat in the finale, about them being the only couple left out of the great cosmic circle jerk. Every obscure, asexual couple in the show's history, from the non starter of Daniel & Charlotte to the anti-romance of Ben & Danielle got some kind of validation in the story, yet the long romance of Sawyer & Kate, deeply embedded into the fiber of the story, was ignored completely. I was disappointed, but not shocked, and not all that broken up over it. It's hardly the only thing that didn't make sense, and it’s not like it made the finale any worse. I don't think there was any way it could have been any worse, to be honest. It may well have been a blessing in disguise that they didn't pander to Skaters. If they had, I might have been tempted to watch it again, and this way I'm forever protected from that fate.


The gloopy cheese-bubbles that were meant to signal eternal schmoopiness in the "The End" made the Gray's Anatomy's finale look like Shakespeare. I don't think LOST could possibly have trivialized the idea of romantic love more if they tried.


Basically, the way Romance ended up being depicted on LOST, the uglier a romance was,


the less we saw it happen,



the less sensual it was,



the more weird and shallow and gimmicky it was



- the more likely it was to end up depicted as Twu Wuv in the finale.



Sayid and Nadia's series long love story, just like Sawyer and Kate's, ended up meaning nothing. In both cases, the women were swapped out for the leggy blonde at the last second. Meanwhile, Jack and Kate, who spent the last two seasons in a deep funk of apathy towards one another were magically transformed with one last WTF into the most vapid kind of Nerd Lovers imaginable.



These writers had no intuitive sense of how to write romance, and what's more they seemed to have a strange antipathy towards the concept of passionate sexual love. It's incredible, but true, in the entire run of the whole series, there was only ONE deeply romantic, loving sex scene in the full six years.


Yes, it was one of the greatest tv love scenes ever and yes, it will be remembered long after this dreadful finale is forgotten, but still ... Only one! In six years! That's shocking. It almost makes you wonder what other issues these guys were repressing. Women were never important to these writers as anything other than babymakers and schmoopies. Sex for the most part was invisible, except when it was making women pregnant so they could die. But when it came time for the Darlton to imagine what the secret in the bowels of the Island would look like, they created a big rod. And a shiny wet hole.



I know. Ew. But don't blame me. I didn't write this shit. The ultimate denouement of this phallic fantasy was that the big hero man had to stick his rod back into the hole. Then the world was saved. And Jack was bathed in an orgasm of light.



Sheesh. These two guys should have just taken their Jack Action Figure and gotten themselves a room.



The LOST writers, of course, chose to make a love triangle central to their story from the very beginning, and to keep it there and promote it until the bitter end.



For years, we heard - from the mouths of the Darlton themselves - that Sawyer was their Han Solo. Even a Star Wars neophyte understands that Han is the romantic hero of the story. He's charismatic and sexy and adorable in all the ways that Luke is not and can never be. It's a type, an archetype, and an especially entertaining one, in my opinion.



But LOST, since it couldn't be original in any other way, decided that this well loved archetype would be the one, the only one, that would stand on its head. They de-sexed their Han Solo and made sure that he ended up getting gotz in the end of the story. There could be no romantic victory for Sawyer, just like there could be no heroic victory, because nothing could be allowed to deflect any light from the greater glory of the magnificent Jackass. Sawyer's fate, and the fate of Sawyer and Kate as a love story, was one more casualty of LOST's Revenge of the Alpha Nerds.



And here's the last saddest, most Inconvenient Truth :

LOST was never anything more than The Jack Show.

All of it was just passing time until it was time for Damon's surrogate, Jack Shephard, to win all the marbles. The only character that got any true resolution in this story was Jack. Jack became Jacob! Then he gave up being Jacob! Then he killed the bad guy! Then he saved the world! Then he died a great hero, knowing he'd saved the world! Then he won the Kate trophy! Forever! In heaven! If you ever doubted that this was The Jack Show, check it out: No one could go into Heaven until Jack got there. He was even the most important person in Heaven!



It's a very inconvenient, but unavoidable, truth that these two rich, mainstream Hollywood white guys could only envision a story that revolved around a privileged mainstream white guy like themselves. It's laughable to think back at how LOST was once considered a groundbreaking show because of its multicultural cast. As the years went by, the black people disappeared, the Asians learned to speak proper English, the Middle Eastern man became an evil beast and the females all became interchangeable schmoopies. Even the lesser white men had to take a backseat to the Great Jacksus. Locke ended up inert,



Desmond ended up not being very special after all,



and Sawyer was kept around as nothing but eye candy.



The decks had to be cleared to make sure no one, at any time, outshone the Great White Hero. Face it, even Purgatory was Jack's Wet Dream. Who besides Jack got a damn thing out of this Sideways world we're told they all allegedly created for themselves?



Claire was still the unwanted bastard stepsister who was pregnant with a baby she didn't really want. Kate was still a fugitive. Sayid still a killer. Charlie still a junky. Locke still crippled. In Jack's wet dream, Sawyer couldn't even get a woman! If nothing else, that proved that we were living in Jack's fantasy world.


But look at what Purgatory was like for King Jacksus. He was the generous kindly brother to Claire that he had never been in real life. He got both of Sawyer's women before he did, and even impregnated one! He magically cured Locke’s spine. Who needs a miraculous mystical Island when you’ve got St. Jack? Miracles were just all in a day’s work for him.



Purgatory was so custom made to make sure Jack would be comfy in his new afterlife that he even got a whole fake person tailor made for him - David.



Now, David, of course never really existed. Poor kid, I'm sure it would ruin his day to find that out. Once Jack had been convinced that he would have been the bestest daddy in all the world, David, I guess, just poofed away. Jack was done with him, he returned to the void to which all things go that Jack no longer has any need of. His only function was to help Jack work out the all important Jackiness of being Jack.



I really can’t think of any way they could have undermined their quasi-spiritual “message” any more completely than by focusing the entire endgame on the glorification of only one character. I know LOST prided itself on making pseudo-religious pudding out of all the world’s great faiths and philosophies, but I’d really like clarification on which mutant religion they drew their inspiration from for this final act. In what faith is the individual ego considered a viable path to salvation or nirvana or enlightenment? Make no mistake: this final episode was about about one person and one person only. It was about Jack fulfilling all of Jack’s dreams,



about Jack becoming the hero that Jack always wanted to be,



about Jack not being a drunk or a stalker psycho ex husband,



about Jack having the perfect son who loved him perfectly,



about Jack getting the respect from Dad that Jack always wanted,



about Jack fixing everything for everyone just like Jack always obsessed over,



and about everyone loving and wanting and waiting for Jack before any of them could start their eternal afterlives. The message wasn't "Live together or die alone". It was "die alone and wait for Jacksus to lead us into paradise."


With this predictable, but disastrous, narrative choice to focus on only one character above all the others, Lost managed to destroy the last hope that LOST could ever have been a great story with a message that was universal or transcendant. The strength of LOST had once been in the variety of its characters, in the way, that each one of them represented a slice of humanity, a slice of heroism, a slice of each of us. If there had been a truly humanist vision behind the LOST story, each of us could have seen ourselves in some incarnation within the story. We could have come away with some unifying vision of what it means to be human and to be connected to other humans. I think this is what many of us had hoped for. I know I wasn’t the only one who imagined that's what we were witnessing. This TIME Magazine article gives a great interpretation of what LOST could have been, what so many of us thought it would be, but what it sadly decided it didn't want to be:
But Lost has not a single protagonist but a huge ensemble of heroes and antiheroes with checkered pasts. The loser, the con artist, the arrogant doctor, the fugitive, the junkie: each has his or her part in the quest, which has less to do with good beating evil than determining how to be good, less to do with getting the happy ending than finding out what it means to have a happy ending. Collectively, they are — to borrow the title of Joseph Campbell's classic study of myth — the Hero with a Thousand Faces, or at least a dozen or so. It's a concept of heroism for our complicated, connected world, where problems are too complex for a single savior.



LOST's problems weren't too complex for Jack. He solved them all, all by himself. Locke tried to save everyone but only ended up giving the Monster a body to use. Desmond thought he could do it, but he couldn’t. Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, Sun, Jin, Charlie, Claire, Hurley, Ben – they may have moved the problems along, but none of them helped to solve or fix a damn thing. It was Jack, all Jack, only Jack.


The Geniuses in Chief liked to say that the show was telling them what it wanted to be about. We couldn't hear it, being mere peons of the audience, but I guess what the show was telling them was that it wanted to pretend for a really long time to be about cool, intriguing characters and ideas and mysteries ... but then at the last minute it wanted to be about Jack getting his ass kissed, his balls washed and a big fat halo super glued on to his head.


So, LOST is over. Finally. And good riddance to it. Sometimes I still find questions popping into my head. Like:



Why did Kate wear a dress into the church but then showed up inside wearing pants?



Or, if Michael said the whispers were souls trapped on the island, why was Duckett who died in Australia trapped there telling Sawyer “it would come back around”?



And like why did Hurley and Ben have to stay behind on the Island if the Smoke Monster was finally DEAD?


But then I slap myself and realize – I don’t have to think about this shit anymore! Ever! And that’s good, because finally it's safe to admit what many of us suspected, but never wanted to say: It was all bullshit.



Is there anything good to say about LOST in the wake of this debacle? Well, the music of Michael Giacchino was always stirring and emotional. The visuals of this show were magnificent. All kudos to the Art and Cinematography departments of LOST. The acting was often stellar and I hope to follow many of the actors into bigger and better careers. And of course, I’ve made some great friends, some of the smartest and wittiest people on the internet, and we made a home at Fishbiscuitland, which is staying open for business. But that’s about it. This was the kind of finale that nullifies a series, that ruins it forever, that renders any rewatch moot. And that’s not an easy thing to do. That kind of failure comes around only once every few decades. So I guess Darlton can claim that distinction. However, I really don't think they should ever show their faces at another Comic Con.



It occurs to me we still haven’t settled on an actual, literal last word. I think we know what Darlton's last word to the fans was:



But as for myself? I always enjoyed sprinkling quotes on my LOST recaps. How about this? LOST was ...


... a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

Oh, well.

950 comments:

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MeriJ said...

Ah, that's why I never saw my post. New page...

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I have to agree with the opinion Darlton let their fame go to their head and the show suffered because of it. Between podcasts, symposiums where they gave a previewing of the next episode and that stupid Lost Untangled rubbish where they were the stars and generally making fools of the people in it, when did they have time to write? That's why the show felt like it was sloppily written in season 6, because it was. They cared more about their celebrity than their show.

After season three, they also seemed to try and come up with some new gimmick to prove how great and creative they were each year. Time travel in season five and the flash sideways in season 6.

I went along with the time traveling nonsense, because I thought they use it as a tool to tell the story of Dharma and answer one of the basic questions about Dharma: what were they really doing on the island?

If you're manufacturing nerve gas and doing mind control experiments, you're up to something. You have some purpose and you're planning something. The same for the polar bear experiments. To me it always seemed like it had a military bend. The polar bear experiment seemed to be how well an arctic animal could adjust to a climate polar opposite to their natural habitat. When they were able to adjust to the climate of the island, Dharma upped it by seeing if they could further admit to the arid climate of the desert. This could be related to seeing how well humans could adapt to similar conditions.

Unfortunately, we got no explanations. We just got more questions: Why did Dharma have a torturer? Since Amy conceived and gave birth on the island, just when did the pregnancy curse start?

What they should have done was give the 06 season 5 off and use season five to explore Dharma fully. They could have had the 06 returning just as the Purge was taking place.

Instead of Locke in the coffin, it should have been Sayid. Locke should have stayed on the island becoming leader of the Others, while Sawyer's group infiltrated Dharma, to explore the hostilities that ultimately lead to the Purge. Instead we got some truce that was never evident in Ben's flashback to Dharma as a child and an adult.

I always thought when Ben returned to the island there would already be a Ben there, and we could find out just what happens when two of the same person are in the same time and place, like the two rabbits appearing in the Orchid Orientation film.

Instead, we got what we got instead. I guess that's the thing that ticks me off the most. They could have taken it in so many other places than what they did. Lost could have ended differently if they didn't care more about their fame and making the show end with their two buddies, Fox and Garcia, getting big endings. For Fox, Jack got to die the tragic self-sacrificing hero and for Hurley he got to become the new big leader of the island. As for the other characters...pfft!

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Ultimately, I think Jacob and the nameless one represented Darlton, while all the hapless mortals they were toying with and manipulating were ultimately us, the viewers.

While the nameless one could take on different appearances and manipulate the characters, the viewers were manipulated with all these mysteries and the belief if we hung in long enough we would be given satisfying answers to them.

We the viewers, had the absolute faith in Darlton they would deliver on their promises of answers to the mysteries, much as many of the characters had faith in Jacob. We should have been on our guard when the most faithful of the Jacob worshipers, Richard, spouted the truth about Jacob and his gifts. They were more curse than gift and only used to serve his purpose. Or when Jacob was shown to not care about all the deaths he caused to try and win an argument with his brother.

Darlton were ultimately the hucksters pulling a long con and the viewers were the victims they left in the dust as they went on their merry way.

Forget all the esoteric meaning people are trying to imbue in how Lost ended. The truth is we all got taken for a ride by two con artists. We're like the woman who discovers the man she thought loved her is gone and he's taken all her money with him, and she's left with a broken heart and an empty bank account. It's not pretty, but it's the truth.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Kyle, yeah, wasn't that special. He wanted to murder an island full of people cause he didn't want to remember he got dumped. What a hero!


And they all went along with it. Jin never thought his daughter would cease to exist. Sawyer never thought he'd go back to the horrible existence he had.


Oh, and when it was pointed out to that great hero he'd be sending his love to prison, he'd didn't give a squat. Baby, that's what love is all about. Ditto for the Bogus Saint Juliet. She didn't care she'd be sending her love back into a horrible life, yet it was played as this great sacrifice of love. Bull! That's why it made me ill that Sawyer ended up shackled to that selfish cow for all eternity.

Henry Holland said...

One of the basic questions about Dharma: what were they really doing on the island?

Read the transcript of the Sri Lanka video (yes, it's canon). The Valenzetti Equation, the numbers, it's all there.

What they should have done was give the 06 season 5 off and use season five to explore Dharma fully

No way that was going to happen as long as Fox, Lilly and Holloway were still gracing magazine covers. They should have been explaining DHARMA *all along*. Instead of yet another Jackback and his boring daddy issues, why not use those slots to flash back to the DeGroots when we see them in DHARMA films. We see them in a film > flashback WHOOOSH > the DeGroots do stuff. They totally got dropped as a storyline, but they're just one of many that ended up in a DHARMA grave of dead plotlines. See also: Alvar Hanso.

Henry Holland said...

Yes, I know James wasn't in the O6, work with me here. :-)

Kyle from Kentucky said...

The biggest and most shocking disappointment to me was the fact that this once great tale of several fascinating characters ended up becoming all about the one character that I hated with a passion the entire time. That may always bother me. I really was shocked by that. It's all about Jack.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

This summer I literally bought the Six Feet Under series boxset because Fish mentioned it in her finale recap.

So I just got done watching it like 2 weeks ago.

Its kind of hard for me to compare the shows Lost and Six Feet Under because theyre quite a bit different.


LOST was the first show that ever made me really think about a show and do research. Six Feet Under was similar but the difference is that LOST made me go out and research stuff based purely on the mysteries of the island whereas SFUnder made me think about myself. I loved the characters the writing the acting I really enjoyed everything about the show minus the constant gay sex.

Overall was it a better show than LOST? No I don't think so but it was pretty damn good. The best thing about SFUnder is that the last 20 minutes of the show is fucking phenomenal. Its absolutely fantastic. After being completely disappointed and left with a huge gaping hole of what the fuck happened to the other important characters besides Jack on LOST SFU completely left me with a satisfied feeling. And LOST left me completely disappointed. IT wasn'ta better show but I didn't walk away with a thousand unanswered questions or storylines that got ignored or so many answers that didn't make sense. 6FU leaves you saying to yourself...wow so thats what happened to all the characters what a great ending. With LOST there were so so many things that you say uhh well what happened to Aaron when he met his mother again etc etc. I'm glad I enjoyed a series that left me happy and without questions after the finale instead of being utterly disappointed and depressed about the crap they wrote.

btw Sayid and Shannon? REALLY??

MeriJ said...

I still haven't gotten over those last 10-15 minutes of Six Feet Under. It was a great show which also had its flaws, but that ending was perfect, especially given the theme of the show.

I thought a lot about mortality thanks to SFU.

Kyle, check out Deadwood. The writing is almost Shakespearean -- only with the phrase c*ck sucker thrown in every other sentence the way a person today might say, "um."

The first season finale was one of the best I've ever seen. More subtle than the better season finales for Lost. More about character development. But at least as good. Unfortunately there was no killer series finale, because the show was cancelled between seasons, but it's well worth your time and your intellect.

Also features what, maybe 5-6 actors who later appeared as lesser characters on Lost, including MIB. But they were all waaay better in Deadwood. Just an excellent show.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I was curious if anyone was still posting here.

In retrospect, the writing for the show was always pretty weak, but the actors helped to gloss it over. And viewers let a lot of things pass because they believed if they just hung in there long enough everything would come together.

I think a more accurate show to try and compare to Lost, is the ABC soap, General Hospital, in the 80's when they went sci-fi with the tale of the Ice Princess. It began with all these people trying to get their hands on the statue called the Ice Princess. In the base of the statue was a formula that allowed the holder of it to control the weather. The story wrapped up on a mysterious island with a hidden compound hidden beneath the surface of the island. Meglo-maniac Mikkos Cassadine had planes fly over the small town of Port Charles and drop carbonic snow and it began to snow in August. He vowed to kill everyone in town unless all the world powers handed over their power to him.

Yeah, it sounds pretty hokey, but the actors and writers pulled it off and it had a pretty good ending, far better than Lost. The ending didn't have the parody-feeling like Lost had with Jack's slo-mo leap through the air and magically climbing out of the well the flop down where he woke up on the island.

Personally, the only reason to rewatch Lost is to watch it with a critical eye and not giving them a free pass because you know they'll pull it all together in the end to see just how weak the writing always was, and to give credit to the actors for managing to gloss over the weak writing.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Some of the biggest weakest writing moments early on on Lost was the Jack/Kate insta-connection. Jack just meeting this woman, learning she's a wanted criminal, and protecting her because of said insta-connection. Everyone going along with what Jack wanted like mindless sheep when Jack's plans always backfired and he was a horrible leader. No one else wanting to take on a leader position. Nobody asking questions and demanding answers. Of course, if they all didn't act like mindless sheep and demanded answers, Jack wouldn't have lasted as leader for 2 seconds.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Here's another: Locke was written off as the ultimate dupe whose only purpose was to turn Jack into a man of faith. But none of that explains Locke pre-dupification.

How did Locke know when it would rain, about the guitar in the trees. to show up in time to save Jack and to show up when Sawyer was searching for the boar.

Maybe you could say the bright light Locke saw is what gave him his gift of knowledge.

Locke was turned into the clueless dupe when Darlton took a fancy to Ben Linus and wanted him to be omnipotent so Locke had to be the dupe of the masterful Ben Linus who played him like a fiddle. The irony is when Darlton found a new flavor of the month with Locke as the Smoke Monster, they turned the tables and started turning the masterful Ben Linus into the clueless dupe.

More bad writing.

MeriJ said...

Yeah, I didn't share the dislike for Jack that many of you felt, but what they did to Locke, Ben, Sun, Sawyer etc. (even Charles Widmore!) was just plain criminal.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I've been trying to see if any character got any kind of justice or good resolution and the only one who really got it was Hurley, who was apparently buddies with Darlton.

While I couldn't stand the character of Jack, I don't think he got any character resolution. Yeah, he got to be a hero, but none of his issues or relationships were really resolved. They just made him a hero and had all the characters around him worshiping at his feet, but there was no real character resolution. There was no real character resolution between Jack and his father, and that was at the crux of everything Jack did.

That's why when those two boobs claim they gave a satisfying character resolution they should be tarred and feathered.

Jack -- no true resolution, just plaster saint heroism given to him.

Locke: murdered in the same way he conned Sawyer into killing his father, in the after life giving up Helen to worship at Jack's shrine and hold hands with Boone, the guy he got killed. Loses the love of his life in both places.

Sayid sacrificed himself after being turned into a zombie, and his reward one might think was to be with his true love, Nadia, in death. Nope, he's with his island rut, Shannon, and worshiping at Jack's shrine.

Claire was good, so there was no explanation of why she was taken and turned evil or if she suddenly became unevil when she was reunited with her mother and Aaron. And in the afterlife she gets stuck with Charlie, who she never even acted like she was in love with.

The thing that bugged me the most about the afterlife story was Sawyer never got to confront Cooper, Jack got to, and he had no history with him whatsoever.

The after life story would have been good if the characters changed when they did in their real life. Sawyer confronts Cooper and doesn't kill him, Jin and Sun raised their child, Locke chooses Helen, etc. Instead Jack is God of this world and everyone gets the ending he thinks they should: Locke and Boone, Sawyer and Juliet, Sayid and Shannon, and Charlie and Claire, and Ben and Danielle. He also chose who could come in his church and who couldn't.


Jack could have still been hero without screwing over every single character in the process.

MeriJ said...

I kept faith to the very last, expecting meaningful resolutions exactly like those you just suggested.

Instead, it felt like the writers just gave up and threw something together while planning their long awaited vacations or next projects.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Five months on I still don't understand how season six could be so bad. Granted, I understand that they thought they had to come up with a new gimmick every year since season 4. And it was a given that Jack would be an ultimate hero. But that doesn't begin to explain the mess they made out of season six and the entire show.

But considering it was the last season, why come up with a gimmick you had no clue how to explain. Didn't they even do an outline for how the season and each episode and the finale would go?

There was also the fan pandering. Desmond was brought back to appease fans when he story had been neatly wrapped up when he reunited with Penny. There was no need to bring Juliet back for season 6, again blatant fan pandering.

I remember Darlton saying they were going to stop listening to the fans and end the show the way they wanted to end it, but they didn't.

As a fan of Sawyer I would have been satisfied to see him return home and try and build a relationship with his daughter and in the alt world facing Cooper and deciding not to kill him. I didn't need some smaltzy ending with the rebound chick so the hero could get the girl.

Darlton couldn't please all the fans, so they decided to please the rabid fans who were the most vocal. In short, they sold out.

They also were inconsistent in the stories they began in season 6: being a candidate meant something, it meant nothing. Being crossed off meant something, it meant nothing. The mirrors meant something, it meant nothing. If Bozo the clown had crashed on the island and stepped forward first, he would have been made protector.

I could accept Jack being the chosen one, but even in that they copped out. He volunteered to be New Jacob because Jack was convinced that he was special and chosen. Not because he actually was. And the water anointment got more and more lamer with each succeeding anointment. Jack had no power when he got Hurley to drink out of a water bottle.

The kind of bad writing that Lost was littered with in the final season is the kind I've seen on daytime TV [which is why I stopped watching] but never have seen on prime time.

Anonymous said...

SockeRock... I totally empathize with your continued disappointment. Having said that, it stunk okay? Let it go now - its been a long time! Then again, here I am trolling Fishbiscuit comments, lol.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

No its kind of hard for me to let go because I spent so much time discussing theorizing arguing and just thinking about LOST. It was a part of my life and I'll always be somewhat mad a Darlton. Also I will never get into another "relationship" with a tv series in such a way because of trust issues. Put your trust in Darlton get burned never watch another tv series closely.


I just found a magazine article I tore out and meant to post something about on here because it is pretty funny.

Its from the May 24, 2010 issue of Sports Illustrated. On page 20 they dedicate a whole page to LOST/sports related topics. Well on the bottom half of the page there is a table titled The rise and fall - and rise and fall - of the most polarizing people on and off the island. They compare 2 athletes Tiger Woods Manny Ramirez with 2 losties Sayid and Kate and in the table they point out their high and low points that happened between the dates 9/22/2004 and 5/23/2010.

Like with Manny his high points are World Series MVP and ALDS walkoff homerun against the angels and his low points are Demand Trade and Steroid suspension.

With tiget his high points are Male Athlete of the Year in 2007 and Wins US Open with broken leg in 2009 whereas his low point is "I have let my family down.

Sayid Jarrahs high points are Rescues Claires Baby and Shoots Ben(lol really) and his low points are terrorist? and assassin for Ben.

This is where it gets funny because it seems to me Andy Page illustrated this table.

Kate Austen highest points in here life from 9/22/2004 - 5/23/2010
-Kisses Jack
-Finds food drop
-Moves in with Jack

lmao

Kate Austen lowest points in her life from 9/22/2004 - 5/23/2010
-Fugitive
- (The absolute lowest on table) Sex with Sawyer
-Saves Ben
-...and Back with Sawyer

wow lmao Maybe its just because im from Kentucky but every single female LOST fan I know from around here anyway had 1 thing in common when it comes to LOST...THEY LOVED SAWYER.

But anyway according to the journalists at Sports Illustrated the worst thing that Kate Austen did in those 6 years was having sex with Sawyer. I just found the whole table hilarious.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Anonymous, I'm not disappointed, I'm more mystified at how a writer could write the inconsistent slop these writers did if they cared anything for what they were writing. What they wrote and the way they wrote it violates every basic rule of good writing.

To be honest, I went into season six not expecting anything after the atrocious season five finale with them explaining Jacob's cabin by burning it down to the ground. I figured they wouldn't really answer anything.

But I never expected the writing to be so sloppy and filled with such inconsistency. It's pretty bad when you can't even be consistent and cohesive in the stuff you introduced in the last season. The entire last season was filler to the grand moment when Jack flopped on the ground and closed his eye.

And, again, it confounds me that any write who cared about what he wrote would write in the slapdash fashion that these writers did.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Kyle, yeah, that table is funny. Must be Jaters. Anyone thinking a character's high point is to kill Jack has got to be a Jater.

I also agree with you that it is hard to let go, because in a very real way Lost is like a book you've been reading that has an unfinished ending.

And it is. Several of the characters left the island and we don't know what happened to them before ending up as grinning ghouls in Jack's Heaven.

What happened when people from Flight 815 returned, after the original lies the Oceanic 6 told to the world? Surely Kate must have finally gotten a well-deserved prison sentence when it came out that Claire was Aaron's mother, and she lied. Did Sawyer straighten out his life and try to be a father to his daughter? Did Miles straighten out and stop being a con artist? What about Richard? Did Walt ever learn that lying sack of dirt, Hurley, lied about his father being alive on the island, and that Michael died a hero trying to save everyone? Did Claire suddenly stop being evil once she was reunited with Aaron?

What about Ji Yeon being raised by Sun's submissive mother and vile father? What kind of life did she have?

Lost is an unfinished book.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Talk about a Freudian slip. That's supposed to be kiss Jack, not kill Jack. But killing Jack would be a character's high point.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

If you get on youtube and search for Lost cast says goodbye and watch the video Terry O'Quinn had 2 comments.

"I'll miss it. I'll miss John Locke like hell."

and

"Its like a book. You don't want the book to end but when you turn the last page you say God that was great."

Lost is an unfinished book. That's a great line. I didn't watch the finale and cry and feel satisfied with the ending I pretty much spent the whole series finale with my arms folded and constantly checking the clock thinking "this is it? Really?"

I walked away from 6 feet under with a feeling of completion. I had no questions and felt like there was nothing left to say about the characters that wasn't in the context of the show itself. That's what is so disappointing about LOST. I always expected the ending of LOST to make me say Wow WTF?!

The gimmicks really annoy me. Time travel and purgatory are not storylines that bothered me. What bothered me is that they spent season 6 focused on the alt timeline when they should have focused on the series as a whole. The characters.

It's not just the stories the finale left unanswered its the dozens and dozens of storylines that just vanished and were completely ignored throughout the series. Like right now my girlfriend and her best friend and her boyfriend want me to get together with them and watch LOST from the beginning. And I really want to because there were many great moments in the show. but I know I'm just going to get frustrated at so many things while watching like YOu Must raise this child alone! uhh why?? Was tthere a reason for that because I think they left that one out.

I'm still disappointed I'll always be disappointed and like I said I'll never trust writers on a tv series again. I'll never get so involved again.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I saw in TV Guide, the Lost book with all the answers is out. This is another thing about this whole thing that ticks me off. The answers should have been given in the show, not on the DVD or in a book which you'll have to fork out money to them. In short, if you want the answers they promised to give, you have to pay for it.

Personally speaking, I can't say Locke had a satisfying ending in any way, shape or form. He was a dupe to the end and ended up being murdered and in limbo death land he ended up holding hands with Boone worshiping King Jack.

I thought Sex and The City had a satisfying finale, then they went and ruined it by doing two movies. I was also satisfied with The Star Trek: Next Generation finale.

If Lost was a book, most would have thrown it down in disgust before even before that ludicrous finale. As a book, it would only have the writing to sell it, not the actors glossing over the bad writing.

Try reading all of Jack's daddy flashbacks or all of Kate is a crim flashbacks. I got sick of them and I only watched them. Reading them would have been worse.

Anonymous said...

That's a hilarious list, Kyle.
Suuuure, having sex with the guy who loves you and treats you like an equal is a low point of someone's life, while kissing and moving in with the guy who AT BEST treats you like a piece of furniture are "high points". Right. Definitely written by a man as highly self-absorbed and comepletely clueless to what women really want in men, just like Jack. Or Damon Lindelof.

And when did Sayid save Aaron? Did they mean when Danielle kidnapped him?

Stupid article.

Sawyer and Kate totally skipped the country after dumping Claire off at Carol's house. :p Sawyer and Kate needs to return to their outlaw roots after all that neutering Jackass and Jujubean forced on them.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Well what they were talking about Sayid saving Aaron was when Danielle took him in Exodus and Charlie got that wound in his forehead healed by gunpowder. But anyway I ripped out that article and kept it because its so hilariously wrong. And while doing that I think I'll make a list of unanswered questions and dropped storylines.

God help us all? no help me...

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

According to TV Guide from the Lost answer book, Sawyer and Kate lived their lives out as platonic friends, no doubt waiting for the grand moment they could die and be with Jack and Juliet, again.

The answer they published for why Libby was in the mental hospital was equally lame.

Anonymous said...

Ha. Kate and Sawyer couldn't be "platonic" if they tried. Sex is their second language.

So not taking Frick and Frack or anyone associated with them seriously as writers ever again. Ego-driven pair of fucktards, both of them.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Just more of Carlton and Damon's bogus answers.

Merij said...

Re: Answer book on Lost. Has anyone checked it out? I assume it's this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Encyclopedia-Tara-Bennett/dp/0756665949

Kyle from Kentucky said...

By the way I still love LOST. Yes I am extremely frustrated by several things notably the last season and the finale but the characters on the show and several moments on the show will always be wonderful.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Lost had some good characters and not so good characters. Jack and Kate were chief amongst the not-so good characters, as nearly everyone one of their flashbacks screamed, "Kate's a crim who will never pay for her crimes, and Jack's got daddy issues."

Charlie started out good, but making him all about Claire really killed the character long before he was killed off. Desmond was able to pull off being all about Penny because she reciprocated his feelings, while Claire seemed to only be with Charlie because he was all that was on offer.

Jin also had potential until they decided to meld Jin and Sun into one entity. The introduction of Ben Linus was the beginning of the end of John Locke.

A lot of potential was thrown away. I think that's what bugs me about how the show ended. The potential was there to pull all the strings together and pull off a really great ending to this show. Unfortunately, that was tossed away for the glorification of Jack.

MeriJ said...

I have the Lost Encyclopedia but have only skimmed it. Here are two sources for new info within it.

The first link shows people's posts at DarkUfo. (Page two has eighty percent of what you'd want to know.) The second link is Lostpedia's entry, including a table of apparent errors in the book.

http://www.spoilertv.co.uk/forum/
viewtopic.php?f=17&t=21433

http://lostpedia.wikia.com/wiki/
Lost_Encyclopedia

.

MeriJ said...

What follows are claims made in the book, per people's comments at DarkUfo:

-"the new man in charge" occurs in August 2010

-The temple, the lighthouse and the four toed statue were built by the same group of natives

- the smoke monster was, at least to some degree, a separate entity, presumably the "malevolence" Jacob referred to in 6.09 and that it "fused" with the man in black so the monster was a combination of the two, and this evidently contributed to mib's evilness.

-Widmore killed the remaining Ajira Passengers.

-Widmore ordered the Purge

-The Purge was in 1987 (not 1992)

-Pierre Chang died in the Purge

-the jughead detonated

-Desmond was born with his resistance to electromagnetism. Thus his destiny on the island was unique

-The ash around Jacob's Cabin was to keep the MIB OUT.

-The QUARANTINE signs were made because of the toxic gas from the purge.

-The ash was broken before Ben and Locke's first visit to Jacob's Cabin.

-The Others welcomed Cindy into their society and the Others reunited her with the kids explained their purpose to her and she sided with them.

-It was the MIB who manifested himself into the drug dealers and the alter boy from Eko's past.

-Ilana was the leader of the off island Others.

-Ilana point blank lied to Sayid about why she was seizing him; her primary purpose was to bring the candidates back to the Island on behalf of Jacob.

-When the bomb exploded at the incident, time "course corrected" and shifted the Losties "who should never have been in 1977" to 2007 . Interesting because of the WHH rule.

MeriJ said...

Part two:

-Libby was in the mental hospital because of her husband's death.

-MIB could take two forms at once before Jacob's death.

-Harper's remark about Juliet "looks just like her" referred to Annie.

-The sickness enters the wounds. The reason people think the sickness is related to death is because Sayid was brought back to life because of the sickness, which is the case, but not always.

-When Sayid left Desmond in the well and joined his friends in the submarine, his soul emerged once again

-Claudia was Roman; the ship crashed and she gave birth to the twins at 1 A.D. (The middle of the Roman Empire)

-Entering the source was "unpredictable". Which explains why some people died, skeletons found outside the source, how Jack survived, and how MIB become a smoke monster.

-Temple was built to protect the natural spring, which was connected to the source

-The hospital christian, and kate's horse were visions by the characters

-Annie left during the incident evac

-Jacob used the light house to create list of candidates. (the Island may have still held more weight in the fate of everyone including Jacob)

-candidates were not only protect the Island but right the wrongs of Jacob (kill smoke monster)

-loop hole was to long con someone to kill Jacob

-the cave is Jacob's

-The brand used on Juliet was a fleur-de-lis (don't think anyone guessed that one correctly). The French monarchy used it as a brand for traitors

-Cindy survived and stayed on the island to serve under Hurley

-From Kelvin Inman's entry
"In the early 1990s, Inman left the army due to his guilty conscience and joined the DHARMA Initiative as a way of atoning for his sins. He eventually ended up manning the Swan station along with Stuart Radzinsky, his paranoid partner who ended up shooting himself while Inman rested. This left Inman alone to enter the numbers."

MeriJ said...

From The Swan's entry
"Radzinsky and Kelvin Joe Inman were the last to man the Swan station. Those who stayed inside the Swan station were safe from the poisonous gas the Others unleashed from the Tempest station to wipe out DHARMA. When Radzinsky went insane, he committed suicide inside the Swan. Inman was left on his own, until Desmond Hume washed up on the island's shore and was coerced to help."

From The Sickness entry
"Kelvin Joe Inman and Desmond Hume took injections while working inside the Swan and Inman also donned a HAZMAT suit as a safeguard when he ventured outside. Inman was aware of the Purge, the time when a gaseous chemical agent was released from the Tempest station to kill off DHARMA. Both the suit and the injections were considered necessary in case some kind of residual toxin remained from the Purge. Over time, Inman grew more cynical about the necessity of the precautions."

-*confirms the white light was smokie scanning Locke*
"The Man in Black's plan to use Locke saw him study the man of faith carefully. When Locke first witnessed the smoke monster, he called it the eye of the island. He thought its flashes to pull information from Locke's memories were beautiful. When the smoke monster dragged Locke into one of the island's catacombs, he had complete faith he wouldn't die."

-The Plug in the source cave has egyptian hieroglyphs all over the top half of it and it's implied that Jacob took certain people down into the cave so they could build the structure seen in The End.

-Another entry mentions how the civilizations who lived on the island never had a large enough group to have a lasting impression on its history

-Locke: It says that the MiB decided that Locke would be the best one to manipulate after he attempted to drag him down into that hole in season 1. He saw Locke's faith as something easy to manipulate. What a dick.

-Locke did have a stronger connection than most people did though, as indicated by his insta-cured legs. But he wasn't quite as attuned with the island as MiB and Walt were, despite what he believed.

-Ben and Widmore's Rules: There was absolutely nothing magic or mystic them. They were simply "gentlemanly" rules

-Danny Picket claiming that Jack wasn't on Jacob's list was "just one of the many things he was wrong about."

-Mother was NOT a smoke monster. She snuck into their village at night, murdered them in their sleep, then set the houses on fire and caved in the well

.
Me again. Sorry if that's too much info for one sitting. I didn't bother trying to copyedit it -- it's just a big copy & paste mash-up of what other people said at DarkUFO.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I guess I'm too old school or a purist, but I think if a show creates questions, they should be answered on the show, not in an over-priced DVD collection or in a book. I own seasons 1-4 on DVD and I've never watched any of the special features. I went by what I saw on the show.

Frankly, some of these answers are as lame as the ones they came up with on the show. But it is what it is. They managed to make more loot for themselves with the over-priced DVD with secret scenes and the book with all the answers. Talk about the long con.

MeriJ said...

I agree completely.

This is the first Lost product I've purchased ($25 at Amazon) but I could have rented any of the bonus discs from Netflix and yet never felt the urge to. However, I did watch the New Man In Charge epilogue on the 'net.

I bought this book for my girlfriend's 12-year old son, who is a true fanboy. He enjoyed it.

I'm sure I'll check it out, since I still miss those (long) lost feelings of wonder.

MeriJ said...

In this book, btw, the authors were only allowed to answer less consequential things, not the big stuff.

Obviously we're repeating ourselves, but not answering questions was not Darlton's big sin. What I can't forgive is how they abandoned the story arcs of the core characters.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

It's fine to buy the book. I'm probably not a true Lost fan. I quit watching in the middle of season two because I got fed up with the glorification of Jack and the repetitive flashbacks. I started watching again in season 4 and bought the DVD's to catch up on what I missed. I'm not throwing stones at anyone who watched the special DVD features or buys the book. I just think they should of revealed the answers on the show.

The sickness answer doesn't explain why Claire was taken. And I was never that curious as to why Libby was in Santa Rosa, I was more curious if when Libby saw Hurley on the island she recognized him from Santa Rosa, though.

If they're not going to answer any of the big questions, then why even write the book.

I think Lost would make an interesting study on many levels. A show that created all these mysteries that captivated the audience that they left unsolved. Two head writers who alternately pandered to the fans while at the same time ridiculing them. The differing reactions from fans at the end of the show when some realized they didn't even get a lump of coal in their Christmas stocking while others were happy with Jack being the ultimate hero and getting the girl and what lame answers they were given.

Now that's a book I'd buy.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I watched all of the bonus features, bought all of the blu ray discs, followed all the easter eggs, read all of the books and I never missed an episode in 6 years (thank you direct tv DVR) so I was a little more dedicated than some of you yet there I come away with the same feeling as the two of you and the line I agree with so so much is this one:

"not answering questions was not Darlton's big sin. What I can't forgive is how they abandoned the story arcs of the core characters."

Amen to that.


I just watched Maternity Leave in season 2 where Claire Kate and Danielle go to the staff medical hatch and also where Claire regains her memory of what happened when Ethan took her.

Why I'm bringing this up is early on in the episode when Claire is going batshit insane about how Aaron needs the shot from the staff hatch she gives Aaron to Sun and argues with her a little bit about how Jack is wrong about his fever not breaking. So she gives Aaron to Auntie Sun to go off in the jungle with Kate and Danielle. Sun had a quote during this argument that cracked me the fuck up...

"A MOTHER SHOULD NOT LEAVE HER CHILD ALONE"

"I'm sorry Sun are you a mother"

"No."

lmao....

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Sawyer and Sun..

"How's your book?"

"Predictable....not nearly enough sex"

HA I just laughed out loud at that even though I've probably seen this episode 5 times.

I was thinking about how Jack never had a moment on the show that would make a fan like me actually like him. Whereas Sawyer had hundreds of scenes that make you side with him. thats just my opinion though I guess people like assholes that are terrible at romance scenes and most decisions they make are wrong

Anonymous said...

Fish...and all those who are still out there commenting. I hated the ending then, and even more now.

I really fear what would happen if I ever ended up in H-wood and ran into one of those two clowns. Someone needs to get a giant turd statue, erect in in L.A. and dedicate it to Cuse & Lindelof and their dedication to producing a finale that was a big pile of shit.

Even the New Man in Charge flung insults at us, furthering the evidence that they fully don't give a rat's ass about the fan, and are totally full of themselves.

There should be a category in the razzy awards with a special place reserved for lifetime achievement in garbage. They's be the first nominees.

I don't want to bother registering at the moment, but you'll see me posting all over as JFWilder.

Oh...I also fully agree with FISH that Jeff Jensen is full of crap at EW. I fully feel he is on the payroll and instructed to continue the love-fest atmosphere. He personally replied to me that his part 3 analysis of his love-fest is due Thanksgiving day. We'll see.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Kyle, back inseason five there was an interesting debate going on after someone saw an audition tape of Matthew Fox auditioning for the role of Sawyer. What if Josh Holloway had been cast as Jack and Fox cast as Sawyer? Would you still love Sawyer and hate Jack?

For me, I think JH was a far better actor than MF. There were times JH just acted with his eyes to tell you what Sawyer was feeling when it was written in the script, and I don't think MF could have done that.

I saw John Terry on Brothers and Sisters and it made me wonder how different the show would have been if Christian had been the protagonist and Jack the one in the coffin.

The Sawyer/Jack and Locke/Jack relationships would have been far more interesting. And what if the doctor taking care of all the people was actually a doctor who lost his license because he'd operated drink and killed someone.

A big problem with the Jack character was he was just so bland. Yes, his daddy said he didn't have what it take, but in subsequent flashbacks Christian didn't come off as the horrible father Jack like to whine about.

Maybe if the character actually faced any consequences for his actions, but he always got a free pass, which is part of what made the character so boring.

He protected a woman who was a wanted criminal, possibly putting the lives of all the others in danger. Kate went of to con Sun into trying to poison Jin, but ended up poisoning Michael, instead.He was going to abandon everyone to get off the island. He foisted an enemy on them, who ended up causing one of them to get sick so she could look good when she saved her life. He ultimately did abandon everyone and only returned because his life sucked and he wanted to be special. He forged prescriptions in his dead father's name and never faced criminal charges. He got over his drug addiction by taking a shower and shaving. He refused to save a dying child's life. He never cared about his sister or nephew. He tried to murder everyone on the island so he wouldn't have to remember he got dumped.

One of the reasons this character was so bad, was because he never faced any consequences for his actions. Yet we were all supposed to be in awe of Jack and think him the greatest hero to ever live.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Anonymous, that's the thing that puzzles me most. The wrapping up of the show stands as their legacy as writers. They sort of tossed it out just to thumb their noses at the fans one last time.

It's just so dumb. The finale seemed to almost be a parody with Super Jack flying through the air in slo-motion. Then there was the old Kumbaya at the Church of the Dead. Lame, lame, lame.

Anonymous said...

I thought protecting Kate was one of the few good things Jack did. He protected Sun, too, after he found out she poisoned Michael.

It was maddening because Jack COULD be a decent character when the writers and Foxy tried, but they portrayed him as a complete asshole too much of the time. I started to like him in season six, but the finale and Jack being glorified ruined that. They should have had him sacrificing himself and only that. He owed his friends that, that wasn't something he should have been rewarded for.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I actually thought Jack protecting a wanted criminal because he had a thing for her was the first indication Jack would always put his own wants and desires over those of the safety of the group. If Kate had been a man he discovered was a wanted criminal, he would have never protected them, possibly putting the group at danger.

This was a theme played out again and again. Jack saw his dead daddy, so he runs off in the jungle, while the group is running out of water. Lucky for him he stumbled upon a water source.

Ben promises Jack he can leave the island, so Jack has no problem about abandoning the people he was leading.

I think the difference between the way treated Kate and Sun to how he treated Claire, was Kate and Sun were up his butt, but Claire wasn't. Claire bucked his authority and will early on when she wanted to have a memorial service for the dead he wanted to burn and Jack was against it.

When Claire tried to tell him there was someone attacking her, he tried to drug her, while believing whatever lie that slid off Kate's forked tongue. When Claire went into labor, he left her at the tender mercies of someone with no medical training, while he wasted his time trying to save the life of someone who was too injured to be saved. When Claire was worried when Aaron got sick, Jack was too busy with keeping Ben in the hatch and brushed off her concerns.

Claire not being as big of a Jack butt sucker as Kate early on and defying his orders sealed her fate. Jack only cared about people who sucked his butt and thought he was wonderful.

Jack generally had a blind spot when it came to women, but Claire was the exception. Maybe it was just a coincidence she was also the only female that didn't blindly suck his butt.

Anonymous said...

I haven't been here in quite a while and it's interesting to see conversations still taking place. I'm glad.

I haven't looked at a minute of Lost since the finale aired. I needed some serious time to let it settle and percolate in a bit. My opinion has only declined since then.

However, about a month ago I got my first HDTV and Blu-Ray DVD player as gifts for a landmark birthday. I thought about watching some of Lost (not Blu-Ray discs, though they'd still look better), but still couldn't go near it. Well, tonight, I finally felt like I could watch an older scene or two, just to see the quality.

Naturally I picked the cage scene from "I Do." I thought I could watch it and enjoy it for itself without bitterness for the way Darlton ruined a beautiful relationship. I was wrong. It was beautiful to look at, and on a big screen texture and color were really something. But I kept thinking about how in the commentary they talked about Kate and Sawyer finally consummating their *love*, how Kate made her choice, how the actors and director worked so hard to show the emotion between these two. That was a waste, because the rest were all big fat F-ing lies.

It's not just that Sawyer and Kate didn't end up together, which is crime enough, it's also the eventual character assassination of everyone besides Jack, as you all have been talking about.

I'm really sorry I read the list of posts about how these clowns explained the show after the fact; it's embarrassing, yet they think everyone has now forgiven them and loves the finale. Wrong.

Maybe I'll try again sometime next year to watch this show. Right now, it's still a no-go. Problem is, it isn't just the finale. Jack is a dick all through the series. And because of the finale, even the good parts are still ruined for me (as I have now see), knowing it all went nowhere in service of a real tool. I don't think I've ever hated a character more.

I agree about never getting truly involved in another series. Most aren't even worth that kind of investment. I'm enjoying Vampire Diaries because they actually keep the show moving and answer questions as they go along. It's not perfect, but it's better than Lost at so many things. And still, I don't want to get too attached.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, that should have been: (as I have now *seen*)

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Anonymous, Jack was originally a character set to die in the pilot episode. As a result they had no back story for him and the best they could come up with was his daddy issues, that were always pretty lame. I mean, his father told him once he didn't have what it takes and that scarred him for life?

They also needed some way to sell Jack in the present day story. If you notice in the first few episodes Jack was always having to take off his shirt, so first they tried to sell him as a shirtless hunk and it didn't work. Then they started the whole man of faith vs. man of science.

They also wanted Jack to be on a level with the more dark and edgy characters, but unlike them he never got called on his crap and he never had to face any consequences for his actions.

Like I said, he's treated Claire like crap. In season 6, the year his divine heroism was supposed to be apparent, he learned Claire was alive and didn't even try and go find his own sister. Then when he found her, again, he quickly abandoned her. again. And this is the divine hero.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Ive thought about that for years. I always enjoyed how the characters on O815 were "flawed" as Mikhail once said and all the issues they had before getting on the plane. Yet even though Jack is the God and hero of the island/show his past doesn't even come close to rivaling almost all of the other characters.

Think about Locke of course, Sawyer, even Kate, even Ana Lucia, Rose and Bernie, Michael (that scene in Adrift where he has to say goodbye forever to Walt is pretty damn moving) Hurley, Desmond is an easy one, Ben which was on island but a much more interesting father son relationship than Jacks, JinSun, Juliet had a better backstory, charlie had a great backstory, Mr. Ekos was better, Sayid easily, Claire was boring but the psychic and baby daddy leaving were better.

Basically every character I can think of has baggage that is more real, made me as a fan actually feel for the characters than Jack. Hell Jack and Lapidus were pretty equal. "I Overslept" vs "You don't have what it takes" are pretty equal in my eyes.

Someone mentioned how what if it had been Christian be the hero instead of Jack just an interesting alcoholic man loses his license because his son told on him etc etc...Christian was always one of my top ten favorite lost characters.

I just don't even know how to describe it anymore like my feelings about all this are numb. I hated Jack the whole time and every fan in Kentucky that I knew hated Jack the whole time. There were those rare instances I felt for him like when Sarah told him she was cheating, in TTLG We have to go back of course. His past just isnt very gripping I guess.

Heres something else that always made me as a fan less able to connect with Jack as compared with Sawyer.

In the infamous episode "Stranger in a Strange Land" Skate walk upon Karl crying in the jungle and Sawyer has a talk with him. Sawyer says something to the extent of "I've been with a lot of girls. Some of them worth the trouble. Some of them not. But every once and a while you find one...that you name dumb stars with."

As a fan I was sitting there saying YES thats exactly right.

Then there's Jack who either falls in love with, stalks, or is instantly obsessed with any woman that talked to him.

Examples:
Ana Lucia - hes obsessed with her after she has a drink with him in an airport bar.
Cindy - they have a flirty scene on the plane then he goes the fuck off on her the next time he sees her in the Skate cage.
Juliet - absolutely fucking obsessed and in love with right off the bat.
Sarah - obsessed clearly even though they never really were good together.
Kate - I don't even have to discuss it. Hell he was obsessed with her as soon as she was sewing his back scratch up
Achara - after fucking her once he stalks her to her private business place and physically abuses her til she gives him his stupid tatoos


I just never could stand anything about him or the way he acted. I tried I really did because I listened to the damn official lost podcast and knew he was the hero man. So I tried. Especially in season 5 when he finally accepted Locke's way of thinking but even then He did absolutely nothing just waited around until OBSESSION BOMB BLOW ME BACK TO KATE..uh ok..

Its a shame but sadly theres nothing I can do about it now. I trusted two assclown nerds and I got burned. Won't happen again.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Kyle, I really feel Jack was the embodiment of Darlton. Those two had major Daddy issues that they tried to foist on nearly every character. We only ever heard about their mothers, but not their fathers. And if I were their mothers, I'd be a little worried how they wrote mothers in the show. Seems like they may have some major anger issues with their mommies, as they wrote mothers as either tramps who cheated on their husbands or were used by their husbands to do harm to their child because they loved their husbands more than their child.

Sawyer's mom cheated on her husband and gave away their life savings.
Kate's mom turned in her own daughter for killing Wayne.
Locke's mom helped Cooper con Locke out of his kidney.
Jack's mom put up with all of Christian's adultery and apparently didn't protect poor wittle Jack from emotional abuse from Christian.
Sun's mom was submissive to her husband.
Jin's mom a whore who didn't know who his father was who blackmailed Sun.
Hurley's mom was originally written as a stone cold bitch constantly putting him down and hardly loving, who took back her husband after he'd abandoned the family for years.

The only women written as good moms were women that died [Ben's mom in childbirth, Sawyer's mom protecting him] or Rousseau who killed her child's father.

So not only do these two dorks have daddy issues, but mommy major issues, as well.

Jack being the embodiment of Darlton explains why he was an asshole who did rotten things but never had to face any consequences for his actions. I mean, he abandons his people and he gets back their trust by blowing up a tree. It was similar to Jack running off when everyone was running out of water to go chasing his daddy and didn't wanna be leader anymore to be welcomed back with open arms with his little mantra, "Live together, die alone."

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Jack wanted everyone to live inside the caves, they caved in no one called Jack on it. Jack wanted everyone to hide inside the hatch, which was a total bust, and Jack never got called on it. Jack got Sawyer and Kate held prisoner by the others while he landed in luxury land, and no one called him on it. Jack abandoned everyone on the island to die and never even tried to look for them and he never got called on it. Jack tried to murder everyone on the island because he couldn't handle his break-up with Kate and he never got called on it. Jack forged prescription using his dead father's name and didn't he even steal drugs from the hospital and he never got called on it.

Heck, he was a drug addict who didn't even have to face the consequences by going through withdrawal like Charlie did.

The sad thing is there was a window of opportunity to make Jack an interesting character if he had gone back and had to face the consequences for abandoning all those people while battling his addiction to drugs. Instead, Darlton wipes away any recriminations for Jack's actions by killing off most of the people he abandoned and washing Jack's drug addiction away by taking a shower. Because Jack [Darlton] could pull whatever crap they wanted to on people and they never had to face the consequences of their actions.

That why the two cowards went into hiding when their travesty for a finale aired. So they wouldn't have to face the consequences of their own actions.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Wanted to add, I never bought Jack's morphing into Locke Jr. One minute he's spitting on Locke, then Locke says his daddy said hey, then Jack starts taking flights hoping to crash back on the island, and when Locke dies he morphs into Locke Jr.? Makes no sense.

I really think Darlton was so desperate for everyone to love their boy Jack the way they did they tried turning him into other characters that were loved. Drug addict [Charlie], true believer [Locke]. In Something Nice Back Home they even tried to morph him into Sawyer. On the island he's trying to direct his own surgery without any pain killer akin to Sawyer digging a bullet out of his arm with no pain killers, while in the flash forward he's running around with a hairless chest spouting Sawyer's favorite curse word. It continued in the season 4 finale when Jack had to rescue a not breathing Desmond and perform CPR on him after the helicopter crash the same way Sawyer had to do to Michael after the Others blew up the raft.

I think a lot of Locke fans may have bought it because Jack morphing into Locke was like some kind of vindication for Locke having his biggest detractor acting like him.

GettaLife said...

Wow. I mean really -- WOW.

You hate the show so much that you are still writing thousands of words of analysis?

Sorry it didn't work out the way you wanted.

Move along now.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

You truly are pathetic and should follow your own advice and get a freaking life.

This isn't a Jack worshipping site, maybe you should go to one. But like a true Jacker, you think you can force your own opinions on everyone else and they'll see things your way.

And like a true Jack fan, you insult and belittle, but don't have the guts to even try and offer an argument in defense of your opinion.

Why don't you try rebutting what was said.

And I don't hate the show, I hate that it was destroyed for the glorification of one very mediocre character. That would be your boy, Jack.

I believe Jack fans were the ones that love the way the show ended, since it was all about Jack coming out a hero. Even when he did something rotten, you people twisted and warped it to make it so Jack was heroic when he was really selfish.

So the fact that no character got any true resolution, not even your boy Jack, but that he ended up hero you find no problem or that none of the mysteries were solved in a satisfying. Okay, fine, that's your prerogative. But kindly extend the same right to people who didn't buy the the garbage that was sold to them.

From what I saw on the boards, Jack fans weren't a very discerning lot. As long as he came out the hero, they didn't really care what garbage was handed to them.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I don't hate the show. I loved the show I was very dedicated to it for years. No it didn't end the way I wanted but I'm not so immature that that is the reason why i was disappointed. And I can talk about why I was disappointed with LOST the rest of my life if I want to. So piss off.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Why did Jack decide to go ahead and abandon his friends and leave on the sub? Because Sawyer had sex with Kate. Why did Jack decide that blowing up the island and possibly killing everyone was the right decision? To GET A FRESH START WITH KATE AWW What a sweetie...

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Ben and Jack in the Man from Talahassee:

"Your friends are only here to rescue you Jack....but you seem to be doing a pretty good job rescuing yourself."

Got to love Ben sometimes

GettaLife said...

LOL, thanks for proving my point.

Anonymous said...

It's pretty sad that Darlton never found a way to write Jack as well as some of the other characters. And too bad the network got involved and said keep Jack alive. If only they had followed the directive, but allowed Jack's descent to continue, while Sawyer's ascent (which played so beautifully up until the last season and a half) continued as well. It seemed a natural path that the apparent hero and apparent villain at the beginning end up trading places. They just couldn't finish the story the way it wanted to go, and instead forced and twisted it around to fit a personal agenda.

They never truly liked any of the women on the show. The list is long (beyond the mother issues already listed) indeed of how they mistreated women, Kate number one among them.

However, I do blame Lindelof more than Cuse. Lindelof was the Jack supporter, while Cuse liked Sawyer. Interesting, which character developed more naturally and was a better person inside, and faced consequences and all the rest, up until the end when he simply couldn't be allowed to triumph.

Hey, Get A Life - why are you even here reading anything?

Anonymous said...

Anyone see dear little Damon's review ripping on HP7? LOL That man is straight up delusional if he thinks he's in any position to be criticizing anyone else's writing.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Carlton Cuse has come out of hiding and is pitching a new show. Since it's at ABC, I'm sure they'll give it to him.

For his next TV project, Lost executive producer Carlton Cuse is looking to history.

The Emmy-winner, 51, has teamed with Secretariat director Randall Wallace for a Civil War-set drama at ABC, Variety reports.

The two are co-writing the pilot script, and Wallace well helm the pilot should it be picked up. Both Cuse and Wallace will be also attached as executive producers.

Little is known about the project other than that it will be an "event" series and based in Virginia.

Before his time on the island, Cuse created and executive-produced all six seasons of Nash Bridges and was also responsible for The Adventures of Briscoe County, Jr., Martial Law and Black Sash.

Anonymous said...

"If only they had followed the directive, but allowed Jack's descent to continue, while Sawyer's ascent (which played so beautifully up until the last season and a half) continued as well.It seemed a natural path that the apparent hero and apparent villain at the beginning end up trading places. They just couldn't finish the story the way it wanted to go, and instead forced and twisted it around to fit a personal agenda."

This really is what it boils down to (at least for a portion of the fan base). There were too many people who fooled themselves into believing The Jack character was going to continue to break down and continue to be "wrong" about the island. All the while believing, foolishly (IMO), that Sawyer would continue to rise usurp Jack as the lead role and become the "true" hero of the story. These same people failed to see (or just ignored what was happening in favor of their own canon) the real story being shown. A storyline that was being constructed with care/time over the seasons: Jack's arc from man of science to humbled island believer man of faith. The fans who were ALL ABOUT sawyer will always resent the Jack character and the way lost concluded. Because Jack got to save the day and got to be "the" hero. Sawyer didn't. Because These fans also believed if Sawyer couldn't be the hero than he would atleast get the girl. Nope! Jack got the girl. These same fans thought that if Sawyer wasn't "the" hero and if he wasn't going to end up with the girl than he at least would get a sacrifical death. Jack got that too. Because these things happened the story was forced and twisted in favor of an agenda? GTFO! Jack had his story. Sawyer had his. BOTH of them good. Jack's was just bigger and more involved. To the still upset Sawyer fan boys/girls: let it go already. To the extreme Jack haters: Why not try using facts from the show, instead of the same old twisting/spinning of the canon, in all your lovely rants.

Anonymous said...

"There were too many people who fooled themselves into believing The Jack character was going to continue to break down and continue to be "wrong" about the island."

I didn't. And I still thought the show ended horribly.

In the end, what did it mean to be right about the island and what did it mean to be wrong about the island?

What was the meaning of the island?
What did Jack finally have faith in?

Anonymous said...

"I didn't. And I still thought the show ended horribly."

Okay, this doesn't change the fact that there is a good number of people in the fandom who acted as if Jack's season 6 heroics came out of nowhere. I guess the point that I was trying to make is there were fans, that were soo into Sawyer and soo anti Jack, that fooled themselves into thinking Sawyer was going to be the man in the end. In the end, these same fans were left upset because the exact opposite of what they wanted/expected happened: Jack ended up being the man. These fans deluded themselves into believing Sawyer was going to tie into the endgame in some great fashion. Even though all the signs pointed to Jack filling that role. Which he did and it shouldn't have been a surprise or felt forced/contrived at all. Jack's ending made complete sense,IMO.

"In the end, what did it mean to be right about the island and what did it mean to be wrong about the island?"

To be right about the island: Acknowledging that its a special place and that people are brought there for greater purposes.
To be wrong about the island:
Ignoring that the island is indeed special/important and stubbornly avoiding your fated purpose.

"What was the meaning of the island?"

It was a Place that needed to be protected because of the light. I don't know if this will answer your question but I viewed the island as a representation of fate. It had a will of its own and things happened the way they happened because the island wanted it to happen that way.

"What did Jack finally have faith in?"

He finally had faith in the fact that he was brought to the island. That he NEEDED to be there for a specific purpose.

Anonymous said...

Your answers are as uninspiring and as banal as the Lost show ended up being.

Ohh, there's a super special light that's very important for the whole world, but nobody knows why the hell it's important or what would happen in case the light would extinguish. Nobody knows because Darlton never knew and came up with the crappy light idea when the show was already ending.

Jack was special? Why? The only answer I got was - because he was the main character and Damon identified with him. I saw nothing on the show that made him stand out more and I saw nothing in the finale that made me think he was the guy that needed to be the chosen one. They could've made any other character do what he did in the last episode and the end result would still be the same.

But maybe it's better they let jack do it all by himself. Some of the "epic" things they made him do were downright embarrassing.

Like that ridiculous fight scene with MIB (I refuse to see him as Locke) looked like it beloned on Power Rangers. It was just laughable, especially for a show that's supposed to be considered a serious drama.

Lost looked like a sci-fi sitcom in the end. With a final scene resembling those that happen on soap operas.

Anonymous said...

"Jack was special? Why?"

Who is saying he was "special"?

"I saw nothing on the show that made him stand out more and I saw nothing in the finale that made me think he was the guy that needed to be the chosen one. They could've made any other character do what he did in the last episode and the end result would still be the same."

That doesn't make any sense. Considering the fact that,during season 6, none of the other characters were about destiny and the island. The only character who was on that kind of journey was Jack. It would have been completely out of character for ANY other character to do the things that Jack did in the final season/finale. There was build up behind Jack's story which led to the moments in the finale. It wouldn't of made any sense to have other characters do what Jack did. They ALL had opposite goals in mind. Like leaving the island. Jack was the only one that wanted to stay and figure the island out. The others just had different stories.

What other characters could have done what jack did and still keep their original character motivations?

"But maybe it's better they let jack do it all by himself"

He didn't do it all by himself. Desmond,Kate,Hurley all helped.

"Like that ridiculous fight scene with MIB (I refuse to see him as Locke) looked like it beloned on Power Rangers. It was just laughable, especially for a show that's supposed to be considered a serious drama."

The fight itself wasn't ridiculous. The slow motion jumping punch from Jack was cringe worthy.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Andy Richter is terrible. I loved the Weinberg/Conan scenes a lot and I hit mute everytime Richter talks.

Anonymous said...

Here's a very nice, but also long Sawyer/Kate video for the fans of the couple that might still check out this blog occasionally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RapuvWAJ6U&feature=player_embedded#!

Anonymous said...

"Jack was special? Why? The only answer I got was - because he was the main character and Damon identified with him. I saw nothing on the show that made him stand out more and I saw nothing in the finale that made me think he was the guy that needed to be the chosen one"

Tell me about it. We kept hearing about how "great" Jack was, but I never saw it. He seemed like a guy who was pretty up his own ass, and when he did help others it was to boost his own ego. (re: his scene with Sawyer after Sayid stabbed him, leaving him to change his own bandages when he commented on Kate. Some doctor, huh?)

What he did in the end was brave and selfless, but that didn't change the fact that he was a monster douchebag throughout the entire series. That was his debt to repay, not something to be rewarded for.

Damon is the quintessential clueless rich white male; so it's no wonder he identifies with Jack, and why he can't figure out why people hate the character and the finale that was designed to glorify him.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

That argument really doesn't hold water. Darlton made it clear year after year that Jack was going to be the ultimate hero, so no one expected Jack's supposed downward spiral to continue. Not when it was shoved down our throats ad nauseam he was going to be the ultimate hero.

That being the case, they did a piss poor job of evolving Jack into the ultimate hero. His supposed faith was born from the fact he had nothing going for him in his life, so believing he had some magical destiny was the only thing they stopped him from trying to off himself, again.

When the ultimate hero learned his sister was alive, the sister he abandoned, he didn't lift a finger to try and save her. Pursuing his magical destiny was all he cared about. How can someone be an ultimate hero when they don't try to do anything to save their own sister?

They had two years to mold this man into something approaching a hero, but what did he do? Refused to save the life of a dying child. Tried to murder an island full of people so he wouldn't have to deal with he got dumped.

His supposed faith was as phony as a three dollar bill. One moment he thinks its his destiny to destroy the island and when that doesn't work, it's his destiny to save it.

Ultimately, Jack the Ultimate Hero came off as a very bad joke.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Here's what I as a viewer expected. I expected them to give Sawyer the shaft as soon as Jack returned to the island, and I was shocked they waited as long as they did to do it.

What I didn't expect was Jack's drug addiction to be resolved by taking a shower and shaving. I expected them to at least attempt to write a decent and believable story of Jack's ultimate heroism.

The only word I can use to describe the finally was cartoonish. Kate tried to shoot Locke earlier, and saw it didn't affect him, but she shoots him again, declaring, "I saved a bullet for you." And this time she takes down the big bad monster with a smart little line thrown in to boot. There was also Jack's superhero slow-mo leap through the air to tackle Locke. When I saw it, I started laughing. That's how ridiculous it was. Followed by being trapped down in the well, then magically clicking his heels together and being popped up to the surface to stagger around until he found the exact spot he woke up on to fall down on and close his eye. He could have closed his eye in any spot. It didn't have to be the exact spot and it wasn't something that happened naturally. It was something forced, much like Jack's ultimate hero status.

Since they [Darlton] have been declaring Jack would be ultimate hero, it was expected that most of the characters would be sacrificed to prop him up, but I thought it would at least be better written.

I also expected after having the Jack/Christian thing shoved down our throats so much, there's be a better resolution than a two second scene with Christian telling Jack the whole world revolves around him.

To put it bluntly, I didn't expect the malarkey they were trying to sell to be written in such a shitty fashion.

Anonymous said...

@Sockerocke- Hahaha. I remember Whoopi Goldberg ranting about the Kate shooting Locke scene. But I think she was able to shoot him because Desmond had pulled the Island buttplug or whatever that thing was, and it somehow robbed him of his immortality. Still hilariously contrived, but there was an explanation for it.

Anonymous said...

She didn't shoot Locke. Locke was killed off way back in season 4. :D

Anonymous said...

Apologies. Locked died in season 5, not 4.

Anonymous said...

"His supposed faith was as phony as a three dollar bill. One moment he thinks its his destiny to destroy the island and when that doesn't work, it's his destiny to save it."

He wasn't TRYING to destroy the island. He wasn't TRYING to murder all the people on it. The show made clear what his intentions were with Faraday's plan and that bomb. NONE of it was malicious. He was attempting to, as Faraday theorized, "I think I can negate that energy under the Swan. I think I can destroy it." Destroying the energy. NOT the island. All in hopes of changing the past. And he was wrong. In season 6 he was still on the island. He didn't give up on destiny. He did a lot of following/listening and when he thought he knew what his purpose on that island was, he stepped up. And he was right.

"Here's what I as a viewer expected. I expected them to give Sawyer the shaft as soon as Jack returned to the island, and I was shocked they waited as long as they did to do it."

It's Jack's fault Sawyer didn't have a story in the final seasons? It always comes back to this for some people. How about Sawyer just became a weaker character, with weaker story lines, as the series went on. His cooper/revenge story ended in season 3. And then it doesn't help that he wasn't connected to the island destiny story like the other prominent male leads Locke/Jack/Ben. He didn't have a story beyond his personal growth. Once the character reached that point of selflessness he was done. They should of given him the heroic death in season 4. But they wanted to keep him around. Not so the Jack character could steal his (nonexistent) story lines, but purely for the eye candy factor.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Not sure what show you were watching. The character that got weaker and weaker stories was Jack. He was pretty much just a background character all of season 5, until the finale. And his character motivations made no sense. No story they gave this character worked.

He couldn't pull off the Kate/Jack thing, and they wanted to keep the triangle going, so it was left up to Sawyer to keep the triangle viable by putting the only real emotion into, while the two not very good actors, Matthew Fox and Evangeline Lilly just went through the motions and not very believable. The only time MF looked believable in a love scene was if he was stalking a woman or shoving her up against a wall.

The whole Claire is Jack's sister was a total bust. There was no pay-off. Jack never gave a crap about his sister or his nephew.

Jack's drug addiction was a total bust. When Charlie had an addiction he was shown fighting to overcome it, while all Jack had to do was shower and shave. Which made a bad joke of the whole storyline.

Jack's so-called belief in his destiny was a bad joke, as well. First he thought destroying the island was his destiny, then he thought saving it was. Jack was a pathetic man who desperately wanted to be special so he tried to murder an island full of people to be special. It was his desperation that had him declaring it was supposed to be him, when Jacob didn't care who took the role, just as long as someone did.

The only character's story who became weaker and weaker was Jack's and the only reason Jack was kept around was because Matthew Fox was buddies with the head of ABC. That's why the character wasn't killed off as planned, because his buddy wouldn't allow it, and demanded the whole show be built around the weakest character on the show.

MeriJ said...

I never disliked Jack –- despite his being self-absorbed and whiny the way Michaele got in that old show ThirtySomething –- nor did I feel it was weird to have him be a hero at the end. What was weird was not having anyone get similar treatment.

Kate, Sayid, Desmond and others were thrown extremely minor hero bones. But there was no need to abandon all those great character arcs just for a single hero. Well, other than running out of time due to the diversionary stories introduced in the last season.

LA X ended up being a gimmick with no real contribution to the primary story. It’s sole purpose was to keep us guessing, but the answer, although surprising to me, made everything that happened there prior to the finale pretty much meaningless. They were daydreaming in the afterlife. WTF? So none of it was actually relevant to anything else?

A collective hero would have been the great ending, a la Live Together, Die Alone.

Redemption stories for the fallen, tie-ins to the rich personal histories for the first and second season characters, meaningful resolution of the key adversarial relationships (Ben vs. Widmore, MIB vs. Jacob, etc.) and resolution of one kind or another for the love triangles, unrequited love stories, and previously hidden relationships like Claire being Jack’s half-sister. They did resolve MIB vs. Jacob well, but the other storylines were dealt with in a hurried, superficial way that robbed them of any meaning.

Instead it felt like the writers panicked and went back to the ending that Darlton and JJ wrote after Season One because it would be cool to say they had. And then wasted the last season setting up that final scene in the church (and Jack in the bamboo). But the church was always a denouement scene. It was not a driving force for the plot, or should not have been. They just screwed up.

Can you imagine a movie director (or an HBO mini-series director) having “only” 13 hours to tie up the loose ends of a complex story and then still running out of time? It boggles the mind.

But I guess it’s time to move on.

I’ve started watching “Justified,” a just finished first season show on FX featuring Timothy Oliphant reprising a role very similar to his Seth Bollock sheriff in Deadwood. So far so good. I love him in that role, and even the bit characters on Justified are well written and wonderfully acted.

MeriJ said...

I meant to say the original ending that *Damon* and JJ wrote, since Carlton wasn't on board at that point.

Also read Damon's recent change of heart about people like us:

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/11
/damon_lindelof_finally_underst.html

Damon Lindelof Finally Understands Where Lost-Hating Fans Were Coming From

"And so I sincerely and genuinely apologize to all those whom I have stripped of their Lost fandom just for complaining about the stuff you didn't like. It doesn't make you any less a fan. In fact ..."

"It just makes you honest."

"I respect that. And I'm genuinely sorry for ever feeling otherwise."

Anonymous said...

"What was weird was not having anyone get similar treatment."

Like dying heroically for the island? That kind of similar treatment?

The only other character, besides Jack, who I could of seen having this kind of treatment was Ben. All the other characters were "done" with the island at this point ("The End").

Anonymous said...

"Kate, Sayid, Desmond and others were thrown extremely minor hero bones. But there was no need to abandon all those great character arcs just for a single hero."

What "great" character arcs were abandoned? Which character arcs were not yet complete heading into the final episode? I thought all the remaining characters had already completed their respective character change/growth heading in to the last episode. What else did you need to see happen for these remaining characters?

Anonymous said...

What else did we want to see? Oh, I don't know, maybe an ending that did ALL of the characters justice, and one that didn't throw them under the bus so Jack Shephard, the most unlikeable and unsympathetic fictional character in TV history, could get all the ass-kissing and glory in the afterlife? That's a start.

Anonymous said...

Don't ask me that question. I believe most of the characters had been decent characters up until seasons 3 and 4. After that they all became plot driven idiots whose only purpose was to wander aimlessly around the island and get a rushed reunion with their supposed soulmate and/or rushed death.

Jin and Sun were a joke after Darlton decided to go with the contrived prolonged separation.

I hope no one will ever try to convince me that Claire had a storyline in the last season or that whatever was written for her was deep psychological study. It was a bad joke. It didn't even look like a decent homage to Rousseau's story.

Sayid - souless, claimed, healed, killed - all in a matter of few episodes. No sense and no explanations.

Etc.

And it's not like Jack's story was any better in terms of consistency and continuity.

But at least he was given a decent ending. I believe each one of the Losties deserved at least that much since they all got shitty stories in the meantime.

Anonymous said...

"Also read Damon's recent change of heart about people like us:

http://nymag.com/daily/entertainment/2010/11
/damon_lindelof_finally_underst.html

Damon Lindelof Finally Understands Where Lost-Hating Fans Were Coming From

"And so I sincerely and genuinely apologize to all those whom I have stripped of their Lost fandom just for complaining about the stuff you didn't like. It doesn't make you any less a fan. In fact ..."

"It just makes you honest."

"I respect that. And I'm genuinely sorry for ever feeling otherwise.""


I disliked plenty of things in the finale and in the last season. But just looking at this from my Skater perspective, I can say that I find Damon's article obnoxious and disingenuous.

When Darlton say 2 or more weeks before the finale is airing that they want people to keep guessing who Kate will choose, then it's clear to me that they deliberately played with Skaters in the final season and chose to screw us over in the last few episodes.

And maybe it wouldn't hurt so much if I didn't have the disappointing feeling that he enjoyed that final Fuck you to Skaters way too much.

The way they completely dismissed the love story Sawyer and Kate had said it all.


So, no I don't give a shit about what Damon is saying now. He didn't have respect for me as fan who stuck with the show for 6 years. And I lost all respect for him as a writer after Lost finished.

Anonymous said...

For disappointed Sawyer&Kate fans who feel like reading a wonderfully written fanfic, you must check out Indigo Junction :

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5636033/1/Indigo_Junction

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I thought Claire got screwed the most. They never wrote much for her aside from being pregnant and a victim. No explanation of why she was taken or claimed. No seeing Claire reunited with Aaron and her mother, who last time she saw her, she thought it was her fault her mother was in a coma. No nothing.

Next up was Jin. First they melded Jin/Sun into one entity and of the two, Sun was the only one they wrote a little something for. Sun despised her father, yet she left her daughter in the care of her submissive mother who would kowtow to whatever her husband wanted. Jin decides to die with Sun instead of returning home to his daughter. And in the afterlife, they give their child the shaft again, to go kiss Jack's ass. They see an ultrasound and they remember Jack. Give me a freaking break. Only Jack fans could enjoy something like that.

Locke finally had a chance to be with Helen in the afterlife and he tossed it aside to go kiss Jack's ass.

Rousseau looks like she's going to end up with the sociopath that kidnapped her child from her. Yuck!

Jack's mother, per usual, got the shaft from sonny boy. He didn't say goodbye to her when he left to return to the island, and she isn't invited to the Church of Jack. Probably cause if she was there it would have taken Christian's focus away from Jack and it's Jack's world.

The whole finale was a complete ick fest.

Anonymous said...

I'd forgotten about Danielle. Crap. Did ALL the Lost women end up as arm decorations for the man? Ugh.

Damon's talking out his ass. JK Rowling spent YEARS preparing the plot for her series. She had a beginning, a middle, and an end planned out, while he flew by the seat of his pants. She didn't let fans decide where HER story went, while he let himself be swayed by shipper campaigns and fan polls. A hack like Damon has no business comparing himself to a master like Rowling. He'd do well to learn from her instead. Being the ego-driven attention whore he is, I doubt he ever will.

Anonymous said...

"Did ALL the Lost women end up as arm decorations for the man? "

*- men.

Anonymous said...

"And in the afterlife, they give their child the shaft again, to go kiss Jack's ass. They see an ultrasound and they remember Jack. Give me a freaking break. Only Jack fans could enjoy something like that."

"Locke finally had a chance to be with Helen in the afterlife and he tossed it aside to go kiss Jack's ass."

Are you saying these characters went to the church FOR Jack? And not to be apart of their group that wanted to "leave" together? Because it looked like a group thing to me. Jack was the last one to show up for crying out loud. Jin/Sun didn't even greet Jack in the church. So how exactly did they kiss his ass?

"Jack's mother, per usual, got the shaft from sonny boy."

Who the hell cares? Seriously! She was a character of zero consequence. She was in what? three scenes over the course of the entire series. If this isn't nit-picking, than I don't know what is.

Anonymous said...

Remember when Damon was advising JK Rowling and telling her she should've killed Harry in the end?

And what does he do on his show - brings all the killed off characters and creates a world in which they will go on living forever.

He didn't even have the balls to let the dead stay dead.


JK Rowling = an artist with a vision
Damon Lindelof = an opportunistic hack

I never had a feeling she wrote her story with the intention on fucking over and making fun of certain fan groups.
Damon did it constantly and particularly in the finale.

Piss off Damon! And stay away from the fandom. Maybe your show would've been better if you hadn't been so obsessed with reading forums, blogs and reviews all the time and instead focused on good storytelling.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

We were told every burp and fart Jack emitted was important, then so was Jack's mother. She gave birth to the holy one, after all.

Like I said, only Jack fans love this and try to bully everyone into loving what they loved by being nasty and obnoxious.

Jack fans, you got what you wanted. So move on, as you advise everyone else, and allow those who saw what you loved as a big smelly pile of crap to have that right to do so.

Unless, deep down, you also know it's a big smelly pile of crap and you're trying to force everyone to shut up, so you can keep living in denial that it was the bestest finale ever.

So the woman that gave birth to your idol is nothing. Wow! Without her, your man would not exist.

It's just sloppy writing even for their golden boy.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Yeah, there wasn't any really strong women. They all pretty much ended up as arm candy:

Danielle was going to end up with the psycho she despised and who stole her baby from her. But that's the only way Ben could have what he want with Alex as his daughter.

Claire ended up with Charlie, who she never even acted like she was in love with. But Charlie was obsessed with Claire so that gave him what he wanted.

Nadia ended up married to Sayid's brother and miserable while Sayid went into the light with his island rut, Shannon.

Juliet first mated with Jack and had his fantasy kid to resolve his daddy issues then she ended grinning like a goon on Sawyer's arm.

Charlotte bedded Sawyer after knowing him for an hour, and then supposedly ends up with Daniel, who she never really seemed to be in love with, but Danielle loved her, so that's all that really matters.

Eloise Hawking achieved her grand goal as rich society wife of Charles Widmore.

Kate ended up with her beloved Jack.

Sun was back to being her submissive self in the afterlife, pregnant with Jin's child.

Even the strong women got marginalized and made a man's arm candy. Damon's ultimate fantasy apparently.

As for Damon, the man needs to go away and shut up. You put that smelly piece of shit out there, and if you think fans weren't going to say it stinks, then you need some serious help.

Anonymous said...

And Alex achieved her lifelong goal of becoming a vapid, pink-wearing ditzball who thinks sex is "gross".

I think Rose was the only woman who was treated with any kind of respect in the sideways.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I guess Damon saw The Matrix. Rose was the equivalent of The Oracle, I think the older black lady in that movie was called.

When you think about it nothing about Jack's Afterlife Wet Dream makes any sense.

According to Christan, they [the rest of the 815ers] created the afterlife world, as if they were waiting for Jack, but in some cases Jack died long before they did. They all seemed to have no fore-knowledge they were dead, and why was Jack the only one who had a good life in the afterlife?

He replaced Sarah, whom he became an obsessive stalker over, with Juliet. They had a child and were still good friends after the divorce. He was a good father and good doctor with great bedside manner. He gave his booze addiction to his mother, while he was clean and sober. When he learned Claire was his sister he developed a relationship with her, even taking her in. This is why I say it was Jack's wet dream as he laid dying and none of it was real.

Desmond only tried to awaken those who were close to Jack: Kate, Locked and Hurley. If this was part of Sayid's dream, why have Nadia married to his weak brother and miserable, and Sayid miserable and guilt-ridden until that grand moment when he sees Shannon and forgets that Nadia ever existed? If Shannon created this world with the rest, why wasn't she on the plane with everyone else?

And you could probably go on forever pointing out all the inconsistencies with Jack's Afterlife wet dream.

Darlton's last con of viewers was to make everyone think the reset worked, only to revealed that, "Fooled you, they're all dead and this isn't a reset." It's just too bad it was so badly written.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I've been saying for half a year that one of my biggest problems with the END is that they didn't use the finale to give answers or stories that were relevant to the series as a whole it was just another gotcha moment HA they really werent dead! It was a season 6 storyline that in the rewatch I'm sitting here thinking what is the damn point in this afterlife


Anonymous said something about how Jack had a great excuse for throwing the Jughead in the pocket of energy because it was to destroy the energy which I agree with. But while talking with Sawyer he just tries to reason with Jack Why Jack Why did you come back Why would you wana drop a nuke on the island.

Did Jack say to save everyone who had died, right all the wrongs that happened? No he says "BECAUSE I HAD HER"

LMAO that shit cracks me up to this day. What a joke. Because I had her? Really?

Kyle from Kentucky said...

*were dead

Anonymous said...

"Anonymous said something about how Jack had a great excuse for throwing the Jughead in the pocket of energy because it was to destroy the energy which I agree with. But while talking with Sawyer he just tries to reason with Jack Why Jack Why did you come back Why would you wana drop a nuke on the island.

Did Jack say to save everyone who had died, right all the wrongs that happened? No he says "BECAUSE I HAD HER"

LMAO that shit cracks me up to this day. What a joke. Because I had her? Really?"

Ah, the season 5 finale when Juliet acted just as pathetically but people started calling her heroic and said she sacrificed herself. She died accidentally and wanted to blow up the bomb to forget Sawyer. (Of course, it was all retconned in season 6).


But about Jack. His motivation became even worse in season 6 when it was clear that he didn't come back to the island for some noble reasons. He came back because he didn't have anything to lose anymore (didn't give a shit about the island, Claire or even about Kate and Aaron). And he only started to feel like he should do something when he heard someone tell him he was special.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

And that is the crux of my problem of them trying to pass Jack off as this ultimate hero.

They want to make him the big hero, then fine, write him like one. Don't write him like a selfish douche bag who spends 95% of his time not giving a crap about anyone but himself and only does something heroic because he's told he's special and he has what it takes.

Jack only sacrificed himself to save the island because he was getting something out of it, and that's no hero. A true hero acts out of selfless motivations.

Sorry Jack lovers, but Sawyer jumping out of the helicopter to save everyone on it is the act of a true hero. He had nothing to gain by doing it, just like he had nothing to gain when he rain through a hail of bullets to rescue Claire. Darlton tried to rewrite later as a selfish act, but because of those moments Sawyer was the true hero of Lost not Jack. Sawyer also did his best to keep safe those that survived for three years, which is more than Jack did. He didn't even ask what happened to everyone he abandoned.

It's Darlton's show, so if they want to write Jack as the hero, that's their choice. But the thing is they didn't write him as a hero, yet they expect us all to see him as one because they say so.

Bottom line, you want everyone to perceive Jack as the hero, then you'd better damn well write him one, instead of the selfish dick you wrote him as.

Anonymous said...

"Jack only sacrificed himself to save the island because he was getting something out of it, and that's no hero. A true hero acts out of selfless motivations."

This makes absolutely ZERO sense. Just because Jack thought he was finally fulfilling his destiny, and he was content with everything, this means he was getting something out of it? What he got out of it was to become a rotting corpse in the middle of the jungle. Instead of doing anything to fix his bleeding stab wound, he goes back to the light cave gets Desmond to safety and fixes the island. He put everything before his own well being. How is that not selfless? The island was sinking and Jack had a choice. He could of left with Kate or he could of stayed and tried to fix things. He chose to stay and risk his life to try and fix things. How is that not heroic and selfless?

"Sorry Jack lovers, but Sawyer . . ."

Again, this is what the real crux of everything is. Sawyer. Sawyer fan boys/fan girls/skaters who are jealous of the fact that the Jack character got to save the day and be the hero of the LOST finale while Sawyer was revealed as the sideline character that he always was. These fans, like SockeRocke here, can't stand that FACT. Sawyer was NEVER that much of an important character and the final season proved that. Jack,Locke,Ben,Kate,Hurley,Desmond and maybe even Sayid were all always more important/involved than his character. Sawyer's jump from the chopper was totally selfless and heroic. But how can you argue it was anymore selfless/heroic than what Sayid did in the sub or what Jack did in the cave. They all risked/gave their lives to save people. They were all heroic.

Anonymous said...

"They were all heroic."

No they weren't.

An accidental death that happens while a character is doing something mostly for his own gain - is not heroic.

Jin and Sun were not heroes.
Juliet was not a hero.
Shannon was not a hero.
Michael was not a hero.
Daniel was not a hero.
Charlotte was not a hero.
...

Anonymous said...

Sorry if that wasn't clear. I meant the three characters I mentioned were heroic. Sawyer, Sayid, and Jack. Not all the characters.

Anonymous said...

Why was Sawyer heroic in the finale? He did almost nothing and we have no idea what happened to him after he left the island. He got a sort of a non-ending.

Sayid died before the finale. I don't know if his death was heroic. It was kind of unremarkable and got no special treatment from the writers. It just happened.

For a story that had an end date set 3 years in advance, the ending was far too sloppy and rushed. Not just as far as the overall plot is concerned, but also in the way the characters got treated.

Anonymous said...

Darlton decided to make Kate's story in the final seasons all about Aaron and yet they chose to have her end up with Jack, the man who insulted her motherhood like nobody else, right in front of her and the kid she was raising.

Blah.

I hate what they have done to this show.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

That's the main point, isn't it? They had three years to be coming up with a killer ending to the show. To be giving out answers. But I guess they were too busy doing all those special little web series for ABC.Com where they made fools out of people, and speaking at public appearances, and doing talks shows.

They didn't lie in the fact that they've known how the show would end from day one. With Jack's eye closing. The problem is they didn't know how to get to point A from point B.

If I had to pick a point the show started falling apart it would be when Jack returned to the island. Wasn't the reason for time travel to answer all the questions about Dharma? What exactly did they answer?

Oh, we learned who Ethan's parents were, but did any of us even care about that? We learned Dharma had a torturer, but not why. We didn't learn why Dharma was manufacturing nerve gas. We didn't learn why Dharma had a brain washing chamber. Oh we learned Ben got shot and he got healed and that's how he became an Other. But that's about it.

In short, the time traveling back to Dharma time was just a waste of time with no answers really being given.

In season 5 they should have started towards wrapping things up to put the final bow on the package with the finale, but even in season 6 there was no feeling things were being wrapped up and resolved, aside from viewers knowing it was the last season.

Again, they had three years to know how to wrap this show up, but it seems they were like a couple of frat boys too busy partying to study for the final exam and as a result they flunked the test.

Anonymous said...

"Why was Sawyer heroic in the finale?"

In my post, I was referring to the chopper jump from the season 4 finale. Not the series finale.

"Sayid died before the finale. I don't know if his death was heroic."

How was it not heroic? He took the bomb to the opposite side of the sub in hopes of giving his friends a chance of escape. He gave up his life for them. That is heroic to me.

Anonymous said...

Darlton's problem was that they had a beginning and an end, but no middle. Or any way to extend their story. E.g. they were all about Kate making her choice in the miniarc, but then they couldn't get the end date they wanted, so instead of just having Kate do something else it was straight back to the goddamn triangle for the poor woman. No wonder Lilly would abuse scripts she hated. She must have been sick to death of Darlton's shit writing.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

The sad thing is a lot of the stuff they did could have worked if they'd actually put something into the writing. But most of the characters were written without any caring or feeling for them.

The story lacked any kind of cohesiveness. It was all disjointed and all over the place.

It means something to be a candidate, it doesn't mean anything. The mirrors mean something, they mean nothing. And on and on it went.

GettaLife said...

Keep the laughs coming SockeRock!

I gotta remember to keep coming back for the ongoing comedy.

Please - DON'T ever move on!

Anonymous said...

"
The story lacked any kind of cohesiveness. It was all disjointed and all over the place. "

And it becomes pathetically obvious when you're watching or reading works by people who know what they're doing, and comparing it to a train wreck like Lost. Works by people like, say, JK Rowling.

Now Damon's tweeting that he's learned from his mistakes and is a "better writer for it" blah-blah-me-me-blah.

Uh-huh. I'll believe it when I see it. LOL

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Getta Life, why don't you practice what you preach and move on.

What's it to you if people continue to discuss the mess Lost became.

Sounds like you're the one who hasn't moved on and needs to get a life.

By coming here to ridicule people, you prove you're even more pathetic than you say I am or anyone else is who posts here.

You're the real joke and not a very funny one.

Just why are you coming here anyway, sweetie? Why are you checking to see if anyone is still posting here. Move on, sweetie, since you can't even find anything to say. Or better yet, look at your own reflection and go ridicule yourself.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Maybe Damon realizes the group of fans he played to weren't the majority like he thought they were, and he wants to actually be employed as a writer, again. After all, the man isn't that old. Maybe he's discovered the group of fans he played to were actually the minority.

I mean, he took a group of very vocal Jack fans, who probably made up the majority of the Sawyer/Juliet pairing as being the majority of the fan group, because they were basically saying what he wanted to here, that Jack was the greatest.

He also seemed to have a low opinion of the fans with the way he and his buddy, Carlton, used to love to ridicule them during their podcasts, maybe he thought they'd suck up any slop he put out and think it was genius writing.

It's actually kind of funny in a sad and pathetic way that both of the hucksters have come out of hiding, thinking enough time has passed for everyone to forget the pile of crap they put out. Of the two, Carlton seems the smartest as he's working on a new project and I haven't heard anything about him commenting on the show. But then it was Damon who told fans that if you didn't like What Kate Did you should stop watching the show.

Damon needs to shut his stupid mouth. If he'd let the story tell itself instead of trying to force it into the Jack is God ending he was fixated on, if he'd actually done a decent job of explaining the mysteries, etc. he wouldn't be having a problem. It's his own doing that Lost, his writing legacy, turned into a pile crap. He's the one who turned it into that.

As previously stated, if he wanted Jack to be hero, he could have started writing him as such after his initial fall from grace. He didn't have to write Jack as sleeping peacefully after abandoning all those people for dead, like he didn't have a care in the world. A decent person with some assemblance of a conscience wouldn't have been able to sleep peacefully as they prepared to tell the lies he decided they should tell. And from then on it got worse. He never even thought or cared about what happened to the ones he left behind who trusted him to save them. He couldn't even summon up any caring for his own nephew and worry about his well-being when Kate showed up Aaron-less telling him she'd go back to the island with him like he wanted. He couldn't summon up any care for a woman who was his sister when he learned she was alive.

And this was the unappealing character Damon wanted us to see as his ultimate hero. And it was Damon who decided to write his boy as a selfish prick who only cared about his own wants and needs. While Jack spouted off, Live Together, Die Alone, his true motto, as written by Damon, was every many for himself.

It didn't have to be this way. It was Damon who chose to write Jack as he did. When Sawyer was being written as a selfish prick only out for himself, glimpses were shown of a decent person beneath the prick. Damon should have remembered that when he was writing Jack. Have him show some regrets for his actions. It would have gone a long way to making Jack the ultimate hero more believable.

Anonymous said...

New here and a new fan of Lost... became a fan watching on Hulu and bought the season 6 DVDs when I started watching season 5. Overall I thought it was a great series but like anything else it had flaws; the disjointed and unsatisfying conclusion mainly. I kind of wish I hadn't spent the money on the last season. Oh well.

On the subject of heroism, I think every character showed of heroism at various times. I think Jack was heroic in the end because he tried to do the right thing for the island, whatever his personal failures.

Having said that, Jack lost me as a a fan when he started harassing and stalking his wife and assaulted his own father. If he'd spent the next year in therapy dealing with his emotional baggage I might have gotten over it, but he didn't. He repeated the same behaviors with Kate - jealous rages, egoism on top of and his refusal to be a part of Aaron's life and a dose of self-righteous indignation to add insult to injury. Then, after he screwed up his own life, career and his relationship with Kate, he wanted to blow up an H-bomb so he could have a do-over? Gimme a break.

Truthfully, I hated the whole stupid bomb plot. If Darlton had focused on the idea that the blast was the only way to counteract the electro-magnetic Incident and save the island and all its inhabitants, I could've suspended disbelief just to see them all working together for the greater good. But as it was written, Jack's reason for blowing up an H-bomb was selfish. Worse, Juliet's reason was selfish and childish. I hated that the writers reduced a strong, independent woman to a whiny, insecure Junior HS girl because Sawyer glanced wistfully at Kate. It makes me shudder that Darlton think a grown up woman would behave like that in a "mature" relationship. Yikes.

Don't even get me started with the non-Skate ending. Suffice to say, I liked a lot of the characters because they were complicated, flawed and interesting. But Skate was the reason I got hooked on this show and the only romance among kindred spirits (save Des and Penny) that showed any genuine passion plus a full 6 seasons of development and ended with the two of them practically inseparable, still alive and leaving the island together. I'm supposed to believe that accounted for nothing as compared with the big afterlife prom? I hated the waste of time that was the Sidewaysverse when there was so much on the island to wrap up that got lost in the end. I don't care about what happens after death, I wanted to know what happened to the still-living.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

New here and a new fan of Lost... became a fan watching on Hulu and bought the season 6 DVDs when I started watching season 5. Overall I thought it was a great series but like anything else it had flaws; the disjointed and unsatisfying conclusion mainly. I kind of wish I hadn't spent the money on the last season. Oh well.

On the subject of heroism, I think every character showed of heroism at various times. I think Jack was heroic in the end because he tried to do the right thing for the island, whatever his personal failures.

Having said that, Jack lost me as a a fan when he started harassing and stalking his wife and assaulted his own father. If he'd spent the next year in therapy dealing with his emotional baggage I might have gotten over it, but he didn't. He repeated the same behaviors with Kate - jealous rages, egoism on top of and his refusal to be a part of Aaron's life and a dose of self-righteous indignation to add insult to injury. Then, after he screwed up his own life, career and his relationship with Kate, he wanted to blow up an H-bomb so he could have a do-over? Gimme a break.

Truthfully, I hated the whole stupid bomb plot. If Darlton had focused on the idea that the blast was the only way to counteract the electro-magnetic Incident and save the island and all its inhabitants, I could've suspended disbelief just to see them all working together for the greater good. But as it was written, Jack's reason for blowing up an H-bomb was selfish. Worse, Juliet's reason was selfish and childish. I hated that the writers reduced a strong, independent woman to a whiny, insecure Junior HS girl because Sawyer glanced wistfully at Kate. It makes me shudder that Darlton think a grown up woman would behave like that in a "mature" relationship.

Don't even get me started with the non-Skate ending. Suffice to say, I liked the characters because they were flawed and interesting. But Skate was the reason I got hooked on this show. It was the only romance among kindred spirits (save Des and Penny) that showed genuine passion plus and a full 6 seasons of development. Skate were practically inseparable and left the island together but that accounted for nothing as compared with the big afterlife prom? I hated the Sidewaysverse waste of time with so much on the island to wrap up that got lost in the end. I don't care what happened after death, I wanted to know what happened to the still-living.

Anonymous said...

I'm new fan of Lost... started watching on Hulu and bought the season 6 DVDs when I started season 5 to finish the series. Overall I thought it was a great series but not without flaw so eloquently set forth by Fish Bisquit, esp. the disjointed, unsatisfying conclusion.

Re: Heroism - I think every character showed of heroism at various times. I think Jack's sacrifice was heroic because he tried to do the right thing for the island, regardless of his personal failures.

However, Jack lost me as a romantic lead when he harassed and stalked his wife and assaulted his dad. If he'd spent the next year in therapy I might have gotten over it, but he didn't. He repeated the same behaviors with Achara, Gabrielle, Kate and Juliet. His "romances" were all.about.Jack; about how his women reflected what he wanted to feel about himself. His jealous rages and egotism were compounded by self-righteous indignation to add insult to injury. After he screwed up his own life and relationship with Kate he wanted to blow up an H-bomb so he could have a do-over. Selfish Jackass.

Honestly, I hated that stupid bomb plot. If the blast was the only way to counteract the electro-magnetic Incident and save the island and all its inhabitants, I could've suspended disbelief just to see them all working together for the greater good. But as it was written, Jack's reason for blowing up an H-bomb was selfish. So was Juliet's. I hated that a strong, independent woman was reduced to a pathetic, insecure child because Sawyer glanced wistfully at Kate. It boggles that Darlton think a grownup woman would behave like that in a "mature" relationship.

Don't even get me started with the non-Skate ending. Suffice to say, I liked most of the characters because they had flaws and were interesting. But Skate was the reason I got hooked on this show and the only romance among kindred spirits (save Des and Penny) that showed any real passion, plus 6 seasons of development that ended with Skate practically inseparable, still alive and leaving the island together. I'm supposed to believe that accounted for nothing compared with the big afterlife prom? I hated the Sidewaysverse waste of time when there was so much on the island to wrap up that got lost in the end. I don't care about what happens after death, I wanted to know what happened to the still-living.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

Oops! Sorry about the double (triple?) post... I kept getting an error message that it was too large and tried to pair it down. I didn't think it posted at all. D'oh!

-MaryS,NJ

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

If you think about it, Darlton totally copped out in regards to the triangle. Kate chooses Jack, supposedly, by saying "I love you" to him, then leaves with Sawyer. But according to them, Sawyer and Kate never got together as they were waiting to die to join the J's in Deadville.

Deadville was also another giant cop-out. It robbed the emotional impact of Jin and Sun's deaths, when in the very next scene we saw Jin walking around alive. At that point we didn't know it was Deadville, we were lead to believe it was Resetville.

They copped out in killing Locke, as well. They killed Locke but kept him around as the Smoke Monster. Frankly, killing him in the first place was one of the dumbest ideas they had. I still say it should have been Sayid in the coffin, since he didn't really do much in the following two seasons but shoot a child and then become a zombie. Locke could have done so much more if he'd been kept alive.

And it would have made more sense for Jack to be so affected by Sayid's death. Jack's faith could have been born from the fact bad things were happening to the 06 since they left the island. Hurley crazy and now Sayid dead. Or Jack could have wanted to go back because Widmore was beginning to kill off the 06 now all the media attention to them had died down and they had to go back to save their lives.

Darlton were pretty piss poor writers when it came to character motivations. They were good at one thing, creating intriguing mysteries, though.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Which brings up another plot hole. Why did Widmore kill Nadia? Was he really gunning for Sayid? But since Jacob made sure Sayid wasn't in the road when the car came barreling towards Nadia, then it seems she was the target, after all. So why?

Par said...

"But according to them, Sawyer and Kate never got together as they were waiting to die to join the J's in Deadville."

Yeah, Darlton really wanted to make it clear to Skaters in every way possible (by explicitly saying it in the Lost encyclopedia) that Sawyer and Kate never got together after they left the island.

But they made it clear even in all the final episodes by not giving them any meaningful scene, and in general by not respecting their love story (e.g. they didn't recognize each other in the alt, they made fun of the cages scene and even had Sawyer say he's not going back in there, they made care not give a shit about Sawyer possibly lying dead right in front of her etc.).

Anonymous said...

I think it's funny how Lost apologists are trying to claim that this show was never presented as a mystery and was in fact always about characters.

To prove their claims they regularly offer some interview extracts in which the Dralton duo are trying to spin things that way (even tough they always bring up the mystery aspect as well).

Since most of these people are Jaters or finale-converted Jaters, one of their proofs is the story of Jate being soulmates.

But that's one of the worst examples IMO. Dralton openly say in some of their interviews very close to the finale that they want people to wonder who Kate will end up with.

So, it's not really Kate's love story that they were writing or wanting people to invest in. They were writing even that aspect of the show as a mystery until the last 45 minutes.

In my mind true writers would say they want people to appreciate the journey of Kate and whoever the fuck they would choose her end-man to be. Instead these hack were still promoting the choice.

Am I the only one who see this as a such a huge, huge fault in writing?

Lost was in no way a character-driven show.

Anonymous said...

Well Kate is female, so naturally she doesn't get a real story. Pfft. "Getting A Real Story On Lost" is a boys-only club, didn't you know? And a white boys-only club at that. (Sorry, Sayid! Sorry, Michael!)

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Nadias death was horrible and pointless. What was the reason for her death? So Sayid could go back and let everyone know ITS GOING TO BE YOU JACK because you are the best after all.


I was looking at all the fan made crap on cafe press of LOST. I like just seeing some of the tshirts with the best LOST quotes on it like don't tell me what I cant do, im a complex guy sweetheart you guys got any milk etc etc.

But one quote in particular made me laugh it was, "IT WORKED"
....
...
..
.
I guess whoever made that shirt didnt realise she was talking about a VENDING MACHINE. Good god thats the worst LOST quote

Parl said...

"But one quote in particular made me laugh it was, "IT WORKED"
....
...
..
.
I guess whoever made that shirt didnt realise she was talking about a VENDING MACHINE. Good god thats the worst LOST quote"

It truly is pathetic.

I, for one, believe they didn't plan to go with an alt universe when they wrote the season 5 finale. And Juliet was supposed to die back then.

When they started writing season six, they decided to go with an alt universe after all. And they decided to bring Juliet back because Sulieters and Juliet fans were whining too much.

When it was clear what they were doing, the alt universe became an afterlife.

And the fact that Juliet was now apparently talking about that vending machine was such a fucking joke.

Bitter shipper rant: It all being tied with the Suliet melodrama just made it worse. Such a ridiculous couple. Poor Sawyer, stuck with the woman he didn't really want. I mean, he did love her and felt an obligation toward her - but she was not his passion, Kate was.

Stupid and unfair writers!

Anonymous said...

"If you think about it, Darlton totally copped out in regards to the triangle. Kate chooses Jack, supposedly, by saying "I love you" to him, then leaves with Sawyer. But according to them, Sawyer and Kate never got together as they were waiting to die to join the J's in Deadville."

I think this is the worst part. Being friends doesn't preclude being lovers but in Darlton's universe Kate and Sawyer, who loved each other romantically as well as having a deep and transformative friendship, will evidently never be lovers again. I find that unbelievable.

So, they're supposed to pine away for their lost loves for the rest of their lives, never fall in love again or marry or have children of their own? Or is it just each other they're not allowed to be in love with each other in Darlton's universe? That's incredibly depressing and makes me wonder if Damon and Carlton ever knew anyone who lost a spouse or significant other. Moving on doesn't mean that the love that the survivor felt for their deceased loved one diminishes. It means they continue to "live each day, laughing and loving each other...". Wasn't that the point to Detective Ford watching that scene from "Little House on the Prairie" (more than just a wink back to season 3)?

-MaryS,NJ

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I think it was more pandering to the fans of the two J's, because after Smirkette bit the big one, there was that scene when Sawyer returned to Hydra Island and was fondling Kate's dress.

The fact is Kate and Sawyer may not have gotten together because she was in prison. She broke her probation on the sweet deal she got to get off the murder charge. Added to that, the 06 lie would have had to be exposed since Claire came back to claim her child. So odds are pretty good Kate spent the rest of her life in prison.

And I still think Deadville was Jack's fantasy as he laid dying. Jack gets to be with the two women Sawyer loved on the island, first. Sawyer doesn't even get the satisfaction of finding Cooper. Jack is able to make Locke walk again. Christian tells Jack that everyone's life revolves around Jack. Deadville was Jack's ultimate fantasy come to life.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

Sadly I'm doing a lost rewatch. I wanted to watch it all one more time in my life then put the blu rays on a shelf forever. So I'm in the middle of season 5 I just watched This Place is Death and I wanted to mention something. Suns relationship with her daughter.

So she spends the first 3 years of her childs life loving and raising her I'm sure they had a great relationship but all the time Sun is still a grieving widow wanting revenge. Then when she finally holds a gun to Bens head she is stunned by the news that Jin is still alive and right after that Ben gives her a choice, Go with us now and find your husband or never see him again pretty much. So over the past season and a half many fans hate on the Kwons for being so apparently uninterested in their daughter and its hard to disagree with that but that would be a hell of a choice for anybody. When Ben shows her the ring she has like what 24 hours to get on Ajira 316 which is not enough time to go get Ji Yeon and bring her back to the island too plus she would definitely be safer with her grandma than going to the island.

I'm just saying shes not the worst mother in the world because that would be a hell of a decision to make for anybody and Sun did make the right decision as far as I'm concerned because I'm sure her intent was to find Jin and to get back home. Of course the Kwons just became motivation for Jack to become island God.

If I was Jack in that sub situation I wouldnt have abadoned them so quickly I would of at least tried tried tried to free her as long as I could and then escaped when I just couldn't try and help them anymore. I just think Jack bailed a little too quickly. And knowing Jack that decision definitely had a little bit to do with Kate already being out of the sub. If Kate was trapped I guarantee you Jin wouldve stayed longer to help.

But anyway the Kwons really arent as bad a parents as many people think. It would have just been nicer if they had talked about their daughter a little more before drowning.

Anonymous said...

Given Kate's knack for coming up with false identities, I wouldn't doubt she used an alias to get on the Ajira flight (probably what those giant sunglasses were for). So it's likely she can and will get away with violating her probation.

Or it's simply yet another plot hole Darlton never bothered worrying about. Like how she was able to get from LA to Albuquerque, New Mexico in apparently such a short amount of time (FFS that's a 24-hour round trip, did Superman come along and give her car a push or something?), and without getting caught by the authorities.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

My problem with Sun's motherhood is her leaving her child with her mother. From what was shown of the society Sun comes from a wife is submissive to her husband and her mother would be submissive to her father. The father she personally held responsible for Jin's death So would she really want her child exposed to that man?

Take a real life example. Michael Jackson left his kids in the custody of his mother, but his mother is submissive to his father, not to mention his father is still trying to get a piece of the pie his son denied him in his will. Jackson felt his father abused him, even though the other Jacksons' have come out and denied it. Feeling as he did about his father, would he want his kids exposed to the man that abused him?

In both Sun and Jackson's case they didn't really think about the woman's submissiveness to a man they wouldn't want their children exposed to when they decided to leave that child in care of their mother.

In the case of Sun and Jin they were both more into each other than they were their own child. Otherwise Sun would have told Jin he had to live for Ji Yeon, that I left her with my mother and if he didn't go home, their daughter would be raised by her father. And Jin would have left Sun so he could return to his child, but he'd rather stay and die with Sun.

The reason Deadsville was such a colossal bomb was Sun and Jin could have rewritten things there and did things differently. They could have stayed out of the church of Jack and raised their child together, rewriting their mistakes of the past. Instead, they gave up that chance to go kiss Jack's ass.

Deadsville could have been a satisfying end if everyone there had rewritten the things they did wrong in their past. Like Locke marries Helen instead of obsessing over his father, Sawyer doesn't kill Duckett and tracks down Cooper and doesn't kill him. Instead, everyone got sacrificed on the altar of Jack.

Jack's true love was his father. Jack could have gone and seen all the people he knew from the island living a happy life in Deadville and then going into the light with his Daddy, but no, they all had to go with King Jack. They had to give up whatever true peace they might have obtained to go worship at St. Jack's altar.

Off topic, saw Ian Somerhalder on Jimmy Kimmel and Kimmel wanted to know what IS thought of the finale. He said he hadn't watched it until last week, and didn't really say what he thought of it. He'd make a good politician. He talked about that last scene with all of them together and seeing all the original cast members chairs in a circle.

Anonymous said...

The fact is Kate and Sawyer may not have gotten together because she was in prison. She broke her probation on the sweet deal she got to get off the murder charge. Added to that, the 06 lie would have had to be exposed since Claire came back to claim her child. So odds are pretty good Kate spent the rest of her life in prison.

There's also Sawyer's murder in Australia and maybe he'll be extradited but I don't think it necessarily follows that either one will spend any time in prison. I mean Kate was tried, did accept a deal and only broke probation (to return to the island) because she was forced by Ben who was attempting to take Aaron. The only way Kate would get in trouble for lying about Aaron is if Aarons mother/grandmother decided to press charges, right? Kate didn't commit purgery, in fact didn't want her son brought into the case at all. It's not like she stole the baby. The baby's mother disappeared at a time when they were trying to leave the island with armed men gunning for them. If I'm Clair's Mum, I'm going to forgive anything to have my daughter back as well as the healthy, well-cared-for grandson I never knew existed. In fact, if I were Carole Littleton, I'd be grateful to Kate for restoring her family.

I figure if Jacob could manipulate events of the "candidates" lives for his own ends, Hurley can do the same to help his friends. After all, the reason the O6 lied was to protect those left on the island. Of course, they can't really tell the world:

"We left them behind on a mysterious island that moves so that it can't be found unless you have Eloise Hawkings to give you the coordinates in her secret Dharma station under the church."

OTOH, the story about Charles Widmore can be confirmed. There are documents that prove he faked the sinking of the Oceanic flight, exhumed bodies, hired of psychopathic mercenaries... I expect Penny would help confirm it.
Unless there's something in Darlton's comments about the post-Island (pre-Deadville) lives of the survivors that states Kate and Sawyer spend time in prison for their crimes, I assume they got some kind of clemency when the provable truth came out.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

The fact is Kate and Sawyer may not have gotten together because she was in prison. She broke her probation on the sweet deal she got to get off the murder charge. Added to that, the 06 lie would have had to be exposed since Claire came back to claim her child. So odds are pretty good Kate spent the rest of her life in prison.

There's also Sawyer's murder in Australia and maybe he'll be extradited but I don't think it necessarily follows that either one will spend any time in prison. I mean Kate was already put on trial, did accept a deal which she mostly complied with, and only broke probation to return to the island because she wanted to find her foster son's mother - a rescue mission (and wouldn't have broken if Ben hadn't conspired to take Aaron from her to force her). The only way Kate would get in trouble for lying about Aaron is if Aaron's Mum/Grandmum decided to press charges, right? Kate didn't commit purgery, in fact didn't want her son brought into the case at all. It's not like she stole the baby, whose mother disappeared at a time when they were trying to leave the island with armed men gunning for them. If I'm Clair's Mum, I'm going to forgive anything to have my daughter back as well as the healthy, well-cared-for grandson I never knew existed. In fact, if I were Carole Littleton, I'd be grateful to Kate for restoring her family.

I figure if Jacob could manipulate events in the lives of his "candidates" for his own ends, Hurley can do the same to help his friends. After all, the reason the O6 lied was to protect those left on the island. Of course, they can't really tell the world:

"We left them behind on a mysterious island that moves so that it can't be found unless you have Eloise Hawkings to give you the coordinates in her secret Dharma station under the church."

But they can tell about Charles Widmore. There are documents and people with knowledge (Miles) that prove he faked the sinking of the Oceanic flight, exhumed bodies, hired of psychopathic mercenaries to kill them... I expect Penny would help confirm it. Unless there's something in Darlton's comments about the post-Island (pre-Deadville) lives of the survivors that states Kate and Sawyer spend time in prison for their crimes, I assume they got some kind of clemency when the provable truth came out.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry again for the double-post.

--MaryS, NJ

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

If you go by the writing, then Sawyer and Kate should have ended up together, because they had Sawyer/Kate connected pre-Island and it was happening again in Deadville. So it was written like they were destined to be together.

The same way Nadia was written as the focal point of Sayid's life. He betrayed his friend to find her, he became a hitman to avenge her death. Yet he dropped her without a second thought to be with island quickie Shannon? Totally not what is consistent to what was written for Sayid's character.

But everything written was tossed aside to make everything all about Jack. Jack gets to be Jacob, Jack gets to die a hero, Jack finally has his father telling him the world revolves around him and everyone has to give up what kind of personal redemption they might have gotten in Deadville to sit in a church telling Jack he's the greatest and without him they can't move on.

Anonymous said...

"Jack's true love was his father. Jack could have gone and seen all the people he knew from the island living a happy life in Deadville and then going into the light with his Daddy, but no, they all had to go with King Jack. They had to give up whatever true peace they might have obtained to go worship at St. Jack's altar."

This doesn't make any sense. You have such a warped perception of the events. Jack was the last one of them to "wake up". The very last one. All the other characters, besides Des/Kate, weren't worried about Jack. All they wanted was to move on. You act as if Jack was orchestrating everything. Like he was making them leave with him. But that's not how it went down. Desmond was orchestrating all the meetings and organized the church/christian funeral. Jack had no clue what was going on. The point of "deadville" wasn't to live a happy life in "true peace" it was to find each other and move on. They already lived their lives.

Anonymous said...

"But everything written was tossed aside to make everything all about Jack."

Like what? Any examples?

"Jack gets to be Jacob"

Makes complete sense, given his story line. He came back because he was told he was supposed to do something. Who else was going to step up and choose to accept the job?

"Jack gets to die a hero"

Again, makes complete sense for the character. He finally got to fix everything.

"Jack finally has his father telling him the world revolves around him"

When was this?

"everyone has to give up what kind of personal redemption they might have gotten in Deadville to sit in a church telling Jack he's the greatest and without him they can't move on."

They already gave up their personal redemption in "deadville"
when they woke up and chose to move on. They wanted to move on, not because of Jack, but because they simply wanted to move on. Why is it such a big deal that they had to wait for Jack. He was apart of their group. They they all wanted to leave together. Jack was apart of that.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

You want examples:

It was ridiculous for Jack to become Jacob aka the new island protector when the man brought nothing but destruction to the island. He had no genuine love or caring for the island. All he cared about was Jacob telling him he had what it took [his Pavlovian dog phrase] and being special.

Christian was Jack's true love. He became a doctor not because he had any genuine calling for medicine but to prove to Christian he could do what Christian did. He couldn't let his father go even in death. He became a alcoholic just like his father and almost operated while under the influence. He only started trying to go back to the island when Locke said he'd seen his father. The first thing out of his mouth to the Locke Monster was questions about his father. That's why all his relationships with women sucked. The only way he could have a successful relationship with Kate was if they were both dead. Alive, they were totally toxic together.

Locke finally had a second chance to be with Helen and he was happy with her, but he gave her up without a second thought to be with Jack. Totally bogus. Nadia was the love of Sayid's life, she was his reason for living, not Shannon, yet he just abandons Nadia to go to the church with Shannon to be with Jack. Totally bogus. These two men gave up the loves of their lives to be at the church so Jack could feel like the world revolved around him.

Kyle from Kentucky said...

I agree that Jack wasnt exactly making everyone bow down to him in the church in the finale since he was the last to have the FLASH. I agree with SockeRocke but I didn't hate dead Jack nearly as much as alive Jack.

I mean trust me I hated Jack since the first ten minutes the pilot aired and did all the way through the series. But dead Jack wasn't making people bow down to him he also wasn't as much of a obsessive asshole in Deadville.

The guilty party isnt Jack nearly as much as it is DAMON LINDELOF.

Anonymous said...

"It was ridiculous for Jack to become Jacob"

It would of been ridiculous if ANY other character chose to step up. None of them wanted to be there. Jack came back to the island looking for a purpose. He found one. Makes sense to me.

"the man brought nothing but destruction to the island."

Besides attempting to detonate an H-Bomb (to destroy the em energy), How did he bring destruction? How did he intentionally try to do harm to the island?

"He had no genuine love or caring for the island."

I think that's because he didn't understand what was going on. Or he, stubbornly, refused to see. Ben and Locke cared about the island because they thought it was their home or the place that fixed them. They both felt it was special and worth protecting. They both felt some fated connection to it. But their the only characters that felt that way about the island. All the other characters viewed the island as a place where they were trapped. At least by the time season 6 rolled around, and as it progressed, Jack began to understand more and more that the island was important and that they were their for a purpose. So when it came down to it, Jack was the closest one to actually "caring" about the island at the time when someone needed to replace Jacob. He really was the only reasonable option remaining.

"All he cared about was Jacob telling him he had what it took [his Pavlovian dog phrase] and being special."

He never cared about being special. He didn't want to be special. Characters like Ben/Locke wanted to be special, but not Jack. All Jack wanted was to figure out why he was there. He wanted to find his purpose.

"Locke finally had a second chance to be with Helen and he was happy with her, but he gave her up without a second thought to be with Jack."

He "gave her up" to move on with his island friends, Jack included. His time with Helen in the sideways world wasn't his real life. It wasn't a second chance at life. There are no do overs. He was already dead. He was asleep waiting to be woken up.

"Nadia was the love of Sayid's life, she was his reason for living, not Shannon, yet he just abandons Nadia to go to the church with Shannon"

I agree this was stupid, but why is this Jack's fault?

"to be with Jack"

. . . and the rest of their island mates. These characters didn't even acknowledge Jack in that church. They were there for the group . Jack WAS A MEMBER of that group. NOT the ONLY member. Why try to spin it to make it all about Jack? Even after you see a group of characters hugging and smiling together before Jack even arrives on the scene. And its some how all about Jack? He was the last to show up to the party FFS! Half the characters didn't even greet him in the church. These characters cared about one thing: Moving on to whatever was next, together as a group. They weren't their to celebrate Jack in any way. It was about the group.

Anonymous said...

I don't have any problem with Jack volunteering to become the new Jacob. He did it because he'd (by his own admission) screwed up everything else in his life and wanted to believe there was some purpose that drove him back to the island. I'll give him that, and the fact that he was satisfied that his purpose was to die fixing what Desmond was forced to break, leaving Hugo the rightful heir to the Jacobean throne (even if the "fix" was Narm-ish and also disturbingly and hilariously sexual as Fishbiscuit pointed out).

But Deadville was indeed primarily about Jack, or more specifically it was Jack's relationship with his father, featured his father's missing coffin delivered to a funeral that was the meeting place of the dead castaways. It was somewhat about Hugo, Sawyer, Ben and Desmond, but every other character and ALL the female characters were plot devices to serve one of the those 4 male characters.

But my biggest frustration and let down with the ending was what it said about the living... Life sucks, and then you die. Nothing that happened to the survivors mattered, only what happened for the few months or years they were together on the island. Whatever happened during the survivors' presumably long lives is completely irrelevant. That's depressing and unsatisfying to me that we don't get any conclusion to those characters' stories. What happened to Hugo and Ben on the island after the others left on the plane (other than the little snippet we get in "The New Man In Charge")? What happened to Desmond and Penny? What happened to the Ajira 6? What happened to Aaron and Walt?

I just couldn't care less what happened to them after they died. Maybe if they'd spent one episode on the reunion of the dead and given some flash forwards to the lives of the still-living it wouldn't have felt like such a waste of half a season. I wanted to know what happened to the still-living.

MaryS,NJ

Par said...

"Nothing that happened to the survivors mattered, only what happened for the few months or years they were together on the island."

Even this was kind of arbitrary and random.

Penny never lived with them on the island, but was there in the church.

Juliet was not really a member of Losties community but she was there.

And what about Charlotte, Frank and Daniel? Are they supposed to be considered Losties or not?

Romantically, for example, Sawyer and Kate's entire story happened on the island, but it was ignored by the writers and they didn't even get to recognize each other in the afterlife. How come?

Did anyone else think that the way they "handled" Sawyer-Cooper story in the alt sucked? It felt like they ran out of time and just dropped it because the finale caught Darlton by surprise. It was there before they knew it.

Oh, did Sawyer's daughter not matter in his story at all also?

Anonymous said...

Oh, did Sawyer's daughter not matter in his story at all also?

No more than Juliet's sister, apparently.

Actually I kind of get why Clem wasn't there. He didn't much give a damn beyond making sure she had money for college, and then sending Kate to check up on her. Kate had to remind him about Clem in season five IIRC. So as much as Sawyer fans loved her, Sawyer himself really didn't.

But Rachel being completely absent from Juliet's story in the alt? No. Just. No. She was a major motivation for the character, and Darlton are raving morons if they really believed Jim LaFail was so much more important to Juliet's story. But that's what they get for listening to a bunch of whiny fangirls (and a few fanboys) who don't know jack shit about storytelling.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Sawyer's daughter wasn't there for the same reason Nadia and Helen were excluded from Jack's blue heaven.

Yeah, you're not the only one ticked off that Sawyer didn't get to meet Cooper. Jack got to meet him instead and he had no history with the man. Supposedly, he saw Smirkette and all was forgotten but her smirking smile.

Same reason Ji Yeon was excluded, too. And like I mentioned previously, Jack's mother wasn't there, either.

That's why they should make it Jack's narcissistic fantasy as he laid dying.

Of course, there was also the exclusion of Michael, too. Supposedly, he's still stuck as a whisper even though his crimes were less than the others and he died trying to save everyone. Yet a rotter like Keamy was allowed in Jack's fantasy death dream.

That's why that last scene reeked so much and why the flash sideways reeked so much. It seemed to exist only for Jack to get everything he wanted.

Jack has a kid by Juliet and Kate never gets with Sawyer. He gets to meet Cooper, while Sawyer never finds the man he's looking for. He's a miracle worker who fixes Locke so he can walk again. He's a great father. His mother's a drunk, not him. He's a great brother to Claire. Christian tells him everyone's world revolves around him and they can't move forward without Jack.

Exactly what did the others get? Sayid loses the love of his life, Nadia, but get's his island quickie. Locke gives up Helen again. Sawyer gets his rebound chick but no resolution with Cooper. Claire got stuck with Charlie a guy she never acted like she was in love with. Jin and Sun give up their chance to raise their child.

par said...

"Actually I kind of get why Clem wasn't there. He didn't much give a damn beyond making sure she had money for college, and then sending Kate to check up on her. Kate had to remind him about Clem in season five IIRC. So as much as Sawyer fans loved her, Sawyer himself really didn't."

What I meant was that Clementine was suddenly missing from the show entirely, not just from the afterlife. Why bring her into the show if she was not going to mean shit? Why not have Sawyer and Kate talk about her in season 6, at least in one scene? If he doesn't care about her, Kate should. It was just another care of poor consistency on Lost.

But if only that was the only problem. So, they let Sawyer worry about taking Kate off the island for most of season 6 - with the only intention to fuck with Skate fans and tease them without giving them any kind of payoff. And in the process, they don't have Sawyer even care about what going on with Miles or Jin on the island - the guys he spent 3 years with.

And I'm supposed to think that all those people needed each other, and Jack in particular, to move on?!

No fucking way! They didn't really care about each other, eve those who ended up together in the end (Claire about Charlie a lot of times, Kate about Jack a lot of times etc.).

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

I think pay-off would have been seeing the characters that survived the island going back and using what they learned on the island to change their lives for the better. Not seeing some phony love fest in a church.

I know Damon thought the world revolved around Jack, but it really didn't. That's why I tend to believe it was all Jack's fantasy to make him feel better as he laid dying.

Kate claimed to love Jack, but she had no problem leaving him to die. What love. She could have stayed with Jack and told Sawyer to find Claire and get her back to Aaron. So her need to play heroine and personally reunite Claire with Aaron was stronger that what she felt for Jack.

There were people Sawyer cared for but to even the playing field so Sawyer wouldn't let better than Jack, then had Sawyer abandon them all and not care about them, because Jack did the same thing, because Jack is the hero and no one can look better than him. And I disagree that Sawyer didn't care anything about Clementine. He proved that was just the opposite when he was going jump from the helicopter. He stayed away from her because he thought that was the best thing he could do for her.

I do agree this whole they couldn't move on without each other is total BS. Jin and Sun only cared about each other. They cared more for each other than they cared for their child. I think the two hacks wanted to make the ending like IT and how much the Lucky Seven cared for each other, only the Losties never cared that way for each other.

In the three years Dopey and Dimwit had to think of ending the show, they needed to plan out more than Jack will will close his eye in death.

Par said...

"Kate claimed to love Jack, but she had no problem leaving him to die. What love. She could have stayed with Jack and told Sawyer to find Claire and get her back to Aaron. So her need to play heroine and personally reunite Claire with Aaron was stronger that what she felt for Jack."

I'm not talking only about the finale, but there have been several instances in season 6 where Kate actually left Jack and went her own way. For all she knew both of them could've been killed off after they split, but she didn't seem to take. She just left.

That's why the finale felt so contrived. Suddenly Kate doesn't want to leave without Jack. Really?! After having left him several times in the previous two days. Such a load of crap.

The only reason Darlton did it that way was because they wanted to make fun of Skaters along the way.

Great story-telling. *snort*

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

She was pretty cold at the temple when she went after Sawyer, too. Didn't even give him a goodbye kiss or show any romantic feelings for him. They just dragged the thing out to the end to keep both fans of this pairing hanging on.

Personally, I never found Jack and Kate a believable couple. If you love someone do you truly want to reset everything so the one you love goes to prison and are all blase about it.

The problem is they lost the plot and started writing from a personal angle. Damon had to have Jack be the end all and be all of everything. Michael's a good case in point.

Yes, Michael killed Ana-Lucia and Libby, because he was trying to save his son. Well, Jack would have murdered Locke in cold blood if the gun Locke had been waving around had bullets in it. The only reason he wanted to kill Locke because Locke was bucking his authority and thwarting him.

Michael abandoned everyone and he was going to kill himself because he couldn't live with what he did, and he went back to the island to save the people he left behind. Jack didn't feel any guilt over the ones he left behind and he only went back to the island to save himself.

Yet Michael gets to be a whisper on the island for the rest of his life, while Jack gets everything his sacred greasy heart desires. And Michael didn't even die on the island.

Anonymous said...

"Personally, I never found Jack and Kate a believable couple. "

I actually found them to be very believable, but as an emotionally abusive and completely dysfunctional pair. I honestly thought this was going to be Kate's story of rising above her mother's mistakes and finally leaving Jack in the dust where he belonged.

But no, apparently Damon thought they were legitimately romantic material. And I blame Damon for the Jate ending because he was the one going around bragging that he was a "Jater" and bashing Skaters with that Kristen female before the finale, while Carlton mumbled about Suliet being mature and healthy and blah-blah-blah-I-have-no-backbone, so you know it was Damon's idea.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

And Damon is still the one whose trying to justify his garbage and attacking other authors who let the stories tell themselves and don't try to force them into the ending they want like he did.

They dropped so many threads and rewrote so much to make the faux Jack is everything ending. I ultimately think Jack was the tool for Damon to live out his fantasies and to perhaps resolve his own daddy issues.

I mean, Jack blows up a tree and regains everyone's trust. That's something out of someone's bad fantasies.

It'd be interesting to think of all the characters who got screwed and see if it was some kind of revenge by Damon for doing bad to Jack or if they stood in the way of Jack shining.

Locke had to die so Jack could become the man of faith that saved the island. Ben, another island lover, who would do anything to save the island, got taken down, too, even though he didn't die. The master manipulator was suddenly easily manipulated and the Smoke Monster's lackey and ended up as Jack's little buddy, Hurley's second banana. Sawyer was taken down, too. In season five they had Sawyer abandon his people to save himself and Juliet to try and make him even with Jack because he usurped Jack's leader role. And in the sub, he didn't have faith in Jack, and pulled the wires, making him to blame for the bomb going off. In the alt, Jack got with both of Sawyer's women, and since Sawyer was allowed to have Jack's second choice, Juliet, they had Juliet having a baby by Jack so Jack had all the firsts with her. And Jack even was able to find Cooper, while Sawyer wasn't. And I previously mentioned what they did to Michael, cause he betrayed Jack.

Sayid told Jack he was the one and even though he didn't get his true love, Nadia, he did get Shannon. No one is allowed a greater love than Jack. Locke who told Jack the island was his destiny gave up the love of his life, but he got Boone.

Hurley who was a big Jack buddy to the end got Libby and to be New Jacob and Desmond, who was helping Jack in the alt world, got Penny.

Jin and Sun, who were off in their own little bubble, got nothing and had to give up their child. To be honest nearly all the people there with the exception of Kate, Hurley and Desmond had to give up something that meant the most to them to be with Jack. Sayid [Nadia], Sawyer [finding Cooper], Locke [Helen], and Jin and Sun [their daughter].

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

For any Jack fans out there, I don't have a problem with Jack being a hero, I do have a problem with how unbelievable they wrote it. It was like a bad fan fiction.

For starters, instead of going to look for the lighthouse when Jacob used the catch phrase "You've got what it takes" he should have gone out looking for Claire the minute he learned his sister was out there and alive. He could have come back to try and save all the people he abandoned instead of doing it because he needed the island to save his life. He could have been drinking and using drugs because he was so guilt-ridden about abandoning all those people he was leader of. All that would have made him a believable hero, and they did none of that.

They even copped out in Jack's final face-off with Christian. Jack could finally confront Christian over all his issues, but all Christian had to tell him was the world revolves around Jack and it was all sunshine and roses.

My complaint about Jack being the hero was it was written in a totally unbelievable fashion and Jack didn't even get any true character resolution.

Anonymous said...

"Kate claimed to love Jack, but she had no problem leaving him to die"

To me, she looked pretty upset about it on that cliff. I wouldn't equate Kate crying and than acting like a zoned out zombie, before she jumped in the ocean, as "no problem".

"She could have stayed with Jack and told Sawyer to find Claire and get her back to Aaron."

It was HER responsibility NOT Sawyer's. Sawyer didn't spend the past 3 years raising Aaron. Kate did. Sawyer didn't risk his life and make it a mission to find Claire. Kate did.

"So her need to play heroine and personally reunite Claire with Aaron was stronger that what she felt for Jack."

Or maybe Kate's need to be selfless and take care of the more important situation, reuniting a young mother and her child, was stronger than her selfish love for Jack. Aaron became more important to her. She took care of him and raised him as her own. For Kate, that bond should of always been stronger than that of any romantic partner. Doesn't need to be twisted into a negative for the Jack/Kate relationship. An obligation to a child will always trump a lover.


"The only reason he wanted to kill Locke because Locke was bucking his authority and thwarting him."

OR maybe He wanted to kill Locke because he was murdering unarmed people and trying to destroy the survivors rescue calls. Jack wasn't worrying about his authority. He was worrying about finally getting of the island. Locke was purposefully getting in the way of that.

par said...

Ah, Michael's story. I still can't believe the crap they came up with for his character's return in season 4. Not that the season 6 cameo was any or much better.

No. Lost was in no way a character show. Its characters were treated in such a lazy and inconsistent way.

I resent any critic/reviewer who claims otherwise with a straight face.

I get that some loved it and grew attached, but this show had way too many flaws to be getting praises for good writing and storytelling.

Anonymous said...

Considering Jack's tendency to put others' lives in danger for no reason other than to reinforce his alpha male status (re: nearly letting Kate be murdered by Tom in The Hunting Party), I think it's reasonable to assume that's what he was doing with Locke when he threatened to murder him. He didn't give a damn about Naomi's death.

Anonymous said...

"Sawyer was taken down, too. In season five they had Sawyer abandon his people to save himself and Juliet to try and make him even with Jack because he usurped Jack's leader role."

Why does the Sawyer character get an excuse? How about Sawyer was just looking out for himself? What's wrong with that? Sawyer should always be perfect? He does something "wrong" and it Jack's fault?

"And in the sub, he didn't have faith in Jack, and pulled the wires, making him to blame for the bomb going off."

But the audience knew it was an honest mistake. The audience understood, based on the past character interactions, why Sawyer didn't listen to Jack. Everyone knew Flocke was the real one to blame.

"In the alt, Jack got with both of Sawyer's women"

How about Jack was divorced from Sawyer's ONLY woman. Sawyer ONLY ever "had" Juliet. He NEVER truly "had" Kate. So, Kate was never his woman. On the other hand, Jack did have Kate. Just because Sawyer wanted Kate doesn't mean she was his.

"And Jack even was able to find Cooper, while Sawyer wasn't."

Its not a competition between these two. Come on! I agree, There should have been a Sawyer/Cooper scene. It could of come before or after Jack payed him a visit. It wouldn't have mattered. Just as long as Sawyer had his moment with him. I also don't have any issue at all with Jack "meeting" cooper. It was for Locke's character. And Cooper was always more important to the Locke character, IMO.

"Sayid told Jack he was the one and even though he didn't get his true love, Nadia, he did get Shannon."

What does this have to do with Jack?

"No one is allowed a greater love than Jack."

What???

"Locke who told Jack the island was his destiny gave up the love of his life"

Helen left him. Locke never had her to give up. She declined his proposal. Didn't she?

"Hurley who was a big Jack buddy to the end got Libby and to be New Jacob"

So because Hurley was lucky enough to support king Jack, that's why he became the new Jacob? It had everything to do with Jack and nothing to do with Hurley? Get real.

"and Desmond, who was helping Jack in the alt world, got Penny."

What the hell does Jack have to do with this? Des/Penny were going to be together regardless of anything/anyone.

"Jin and Sun, who were off in their own little bubble, got nothing and had to give up their child."

As you pointed out, they were in their own bubble. NOTHING to do with the Jack character here. And yet its his fault they gave up their child in the imaginary/purgatory world.

"To be honest nearly all the people there with the exception of Kate, Hurley and Desmond had to give up something that meant the most to them to be with Jack."

To be honest, and based on the canon of the show, all the characters weren't there "to be with" Jack. They were there for the group. They were there to move on together. Again, your twisting the character motivations to support the Jack bashing.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

If you rewatch Lost and just judge it by what's written and not what the actors did to make something out of what they were given, it was never all that well written to begin with. Many of the actors that were capable of it had to use their acting skills to put more into their characters than what was written. The ones that couldn't do that and just performed what was written are the ones that weren't successful characters. I think that's one of the main reasons the Kate character was so disliked, because EL never put anything into her character other than what was written for her, and what was written for her wasn't that good.

And I'm not making excuses for Sawyer, the sudden turn around wasn't believable when he was being written as one way. It was to have Sawyer do what Jack did to make Jack's behavior acceptable in some way. It's something that's happened throughout the series to make Jack look good and Sawyer was just the latest character to get the treatment. It's just the name of the game on this show, which should have been named Jack instead of Lost.

It was never the greatest show ever as some have painted it. In season 2 the flashbacks became repetitive. In season 2 when no mysteries were solved and they just kept building more and more mysteries on top of the ones they'd had yet to solve, you had the feeling of being stringed along.

Along the way it became more about gimmicks. What gimmick would it be this year? What main character would they kill off this season? All that took a toll on the show.

And the only reason I can think why Michael was cursed to be a whisper and Jack got everything he wanted was because Michael had a conscience about abandoning everyone and saving himself and Walt, while Jack didn't. And that being the case, maybe all those character weren't in heaven but in hell.

Anonymous said...

How about Jack was divorced from Sawyer's ONLY woman. Sawyer ONLY ever "had" Juliet. He NEVER truly "had" Kate. So, Kate was never his woman. On the other hand, Jack did have Kate. Just because Sawyer wanted Kate doesn't mean she was his.

Your Mileage May Vary, of course but Sawyer most certainly had Kate when they were leaving together on the chopper. This is canon and the Word of God. Hell, even Juliet recognized that Sawyer still had feelings for Kate and acted like a jealous school girl(talk about a character regression)...is this how Darlton think "mature" women behave in a stable relationship? Yikes.

Darlton showed us that Kate loved Sawyer so much that she pined for him and kept his promise for the three years they were apart, and that Sawyer loved Kate enough to sacrifice his ride home so she would have a chance.

But Skate were both damaged people who had a lot of emotional baggage, still trying to feel their way through it and never got a chance to go further because they were separated by geography and time.

Sawyer did have a chance with Juliet who was literally the only woman left in his little enclave and it gave him a long time to work through his issues but I dispute Darlton's view that Suliet was "mature" only because it was as illusory as Kate's motherhood of Aaron... not to say the love they had for each other wasn't real (or Kate's for Aaron) but that they were living in a false reality in which they didn't belong (per Word of God) and which was temporary. Kate had to give up Aaron and Suliet had to give up the little faux-Utopian life that they had together.

As for Jack and Kate...

I actually found them to be very believable, but as an emotionally abusive and completely dysfunctional pair.

THIS. I was a big Jack fan when I first watched this show but after his psycho-stalker incident with Sarah, attacking his father in a jealous rage, physically bullying Achara, using Gabrielle to feel better about himself, and verbally berating and abusing Kate, yeah... it was all too real of a certain kind of guy who views women favorably only when they stroke his ego. If I had to pair Jack with someone, I would have picked a good psychotherapist (Hey Libby! j/k). After a year or two of therapy, maybe he would have been ready for a healthy relationship with Kate or another woman. But Jack would never have gotten help because he didn't think anything was wrong with himself. So as it happened, Jack didn't get help and he and Kate who had her own problems, were toxic together for the most part.

It makes me wonder what sort of relationships Damon has with women if he thinks that is what true romantic love looks like.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

"it was all too real of a certain kind of guy who views women favorably only when they stroke his ego."

This? Is the major reason I hate Jack. Men like that are bad enough in real life, I don't want to watch them on TV, either, much less be made the main fucking character.

"It makes me wonder what sort of relationships Damon has with women if he thinks that is what true romantic love looks like."

Damon talks about how much he sympathizes with Jack, then I think about how Jack treated Kate like shit every time she showed signs of wanting Sawyer's ass over his, and it makes me wonder if Kate represents every woman that dumped Damon for a better man. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if it were true.

Anonymous said...

"It was to have Sawyer do what Jack did to make Jack's behavior acceptable in some way."

This is an excuse.

"It's something that's happened throughout the series to make Jack look good and Sawyer was just the latest character to get the treatment."

Another excuse. This POV of Sawyer as this perfect hero who does no wrong is soo phony. Soo unreal. No one is 100% selfless 100% of the time. And now your saying the show has been purposefully making Jack look good while making Sawyer look bad. IMO, they did the exact opposite of that. The character they broke down consistently over the course of the series was Jack. The character the show built up consistently over the course of the series was Sawyer.

Anonymous said...

"Your Mileage May Vary, of course but Sawyer most certainly had Kate when they were leaving together on the chopper."

How so? because he gave her a kiss? They weren't "together" at this point. In 4x04 Kate left Sawyer at the barracks. Sawyer let her go and decided to stay. And this means Sawyer still "had" Kate? Sawyer was always aware of Kate's attachment to Jack, and right before they all boarded the chopper, he saw her go to Jack. He knew he didn't have all of her heart. A matter of days after Sawyer's jump, we have Kate telling Jack that she has always been with him. So how did Sawyer "most certainly" have Kate at this point in the time line?

"Darlton showed us that Kate loved Sawyer so much that she pined for him"

Darlton "showed" us no such scene. Where is the Kate scene of her pining for her Sawyer?

In order for Sawyer, to of HAD Kate, she would of needed to make a commitment to him. She never made a commitment TO HIM. Kate DID commit to Jack. They were in a serious relationship off island. She agreed to be his wife. And even after they broke up and even after he tried to erase their memories, she STILL wanted him. So, Jack most certainly was the one who had Kate. Sawyer: "I had a thing for a girl once. And I had a shot at her . . .". Sawyer had a"shot" with Kate. He NEVER FULLY had her. He had the opportunity. The chance. Meaning at his best he would of still had to compete with her feelings for Jack. He had the chance to try and win her over completely. Doesn't mean he would of succeeded. But he DID NOT take his "shot" so its a moot point. Sawyer never had her. PERIOD. JACK: "I had her. I had her, and I lost her". Jack had Kate. Kate confirmed as much in the finale.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

It's not an excuse, and I'm not saying Sawyer is perfect, you are. He's far from it. But when your boy Jack returned with his entourage, Sawyer could have abandoned them and let them fend for himself, but he didn't. Ditto for when Sayid shot Young Ben. They even had Hurley say Sawyer wouldn't just abandon them. It didn't fit.

And, yes, the propping up of the very lame Jack happened throughout the entire series, because he was Damon's boy. Jack never got called on any of his crap while every other character did.

I'm referring to character development, something Jack never had much of if any.

It also made no sense for any of the people who went along with Jack's reset plan to go along with it. But because it was Jack, they did. Just like when he abandoned them as leader and cut a deal to get himself off the island, all he had to do was blow up a tree to regain everyone's trust.

Ridiculous plot twists were the hallmark of the character of Jack. Has a drug addiction all he needs to do is shower and shave to be rid of it. Jack abandons all these people and no one calls him on it. Jack lies that everyone's dead and no one calls him on it.

And as the previous posters mentioned, there was Jack's problem with women. As long as you pandered to Jack's ego he was great, but the minute you don't his problems with women become apparent. The only time I saw Jack in a believable romantic scene with a woman it was when he was roughing up that Achara and making her doing something she didn't want to do.

What they had Sawyer do wasn't consistent with how they wrote him all of season five, and you can keep saying it's making excuses until you're blue in the face. I'm not buying that anymore than Darlton trying to rewrite why Sawyer jumped from the helicopter so it wasn't a selfless act, but a selfish one.

Anonymous said...

"It's not an excuse, and I'm not saying Sawyer is perfect, you are."

Yeah that is an excuse. Your saying Because the writers made Jack do x, that they than had to find a way to make Sawyer do x to "even out" things. That's a total cop out. That's just giving the character an automatic pass. You keep bringing the Jack Character into the equation. Your using the Jack character as an excuse for Sawyer's actions. Your basically saying the writers are, because of Jack, holding Sawyer back from this do no wrong/hero status. Sawyer is an outlaw. He was never going to be the hero who saves the day every day. That's not real. NONE of the characters were ever going to be like that. No one is That selfless. No one is that good. We have seen flashes of selflessness. Flashes of heroism. To expect a character to always do the "right" thing is totally unfair to the character. And to blame other characters, when your fav doesn't live up to the "do no wrong" ridiculous standards (that you seem to hold season 5 Sawyer to), is bogus.

"They even had Hurley say Sawyer wouldn't just abandon them. It didn't fit."

Jack/Kate/Faraday leave the compound to go find the hostiles. The rest decide to go to the beach. Sawyer/Juliet get caught. Everyone else is free. Why can't Sawyer make a deal and get himself and his girlfriend to safety? Why is that a bad thing? He should look out for Hurley, who was safe with Jin/Miles, over the captive Juliet? He did everything he could for the Ajira 4, but shit just hit the fan. So, Sawyer decides to protect himself and Juliet by leaving on the sub and it "doesn't fit" so it must be because of Jack. That's bogus.


"Jack never got called on any of his crap while every other character did."

That is not true. Locke called him on his disbelief in the island on multiple occasions. Sawyer bashed his leadership on multiple occasions. Kate slapped him across the face and bitched him out for his leaving her and drugging/boozing it up. Juliet called him on why he returned to the island. Sawyer called him on his "crap" when he kicked his ass. Does that not count?

Just curious, what crap did other characters get "called" on?

"What they had Sawyer do wasn't consistent with how they wrote him all of season five"

What was he supposed to do then? What would have been consistent?

Anonymous said...

Sawyer reverted back into a selfish, lazy ass in s5, while Jack just wandered into insignificance. I found myself wishing Kate would put them both out of their and our misery.

Anonymous said...

They weren't "together" at this point. In 4x04 Kate left Sawyer at the barracks. Sawyer let her go and decided to stay. And this means Sawyer still "had" Kate?

Kate's a complicated woman. She left Sawyer in the barracks because she was dealing the uncertainty about the situation with Locke vs. Jack and maybe a fear of commitment; not because she didn't love Sawyer. They'd been together for maybe a month at this point and life was spinning out of control. We can speculate about what Kate was thinking but she clearly thought "playing house" in New Otherton was unrealistic. She was right, after all. I think she didn't demand that Sawyer come with her because he was enough like her that she knew he had to decide for himself (and vice versa).

Darlton "showed" us no such scene. Where is the Kate scene of her pining for her Sawyer?


Okay. How about this:

"Damon: Kate is raising Claire's son, Aaron, as her own... And we later realize, emotionally, Kate's still reeling from Sawyer's decision to jump off the helicopter. This man that she really loved left her, abandoned her, decided to stay behind on the island. She's trying to heal the emotional scar left by Sawyer taking himself out of the equation.

Damon: Kate doesn't realize she's replacing the wound left by Sawyer with Aaron. Ironically it's pointed out to her by an ex-girlfriend of Sawyer."


You can "see" whatever you want if you really want to deny what was actually intended, but what I saw is what they intended and what Evi portrayed; Kate's devastation, the unshed tears in her eyes when he dropped into the sea. Kate loved Sawyer. He had her heart when he jumped. Aaron was her surrogate for losing the man she loved.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

"I think she didn't demand that Sawyer come with her because he was enough like her that she knew he had to decide for himself (and vice versa)."

IF Sawyer truly "had" Kate than either she would of stayed with him or he would of left with her. They get in an argument. He calls her on the flip flopping. She slaps him. She leaves. He doesn't follow. Yes I agree they had a love for each other. Were they in love? Did they love each other enough? I don't think so. At this point in the story I think Kate was still conflicted and had a love for both Jack and Sawyer.

"You can "see" whatever you want if you really want to deny what was actually intended"

And you can listen to all the Darlton interviews you want to. What they say and what the show says don't match up all the time.

"Kate's devastation, the unshed tears in her eyes when he dropped into the sea"

I saw that too. She should of been devastated.

"Kate loved Sawyer"

I agree. But I also believe she loved Jack at this point in time. And I think she always had a stronger emotional connection to Jack.

"He had her heart when he jumped."

As I have said, I believe Kate was conflicted at this point. She hadn't committed herself completely with either guy. When Sawyer jumped he had a piece of her heart. For sure. Did he have her completely? Absolutely NOT. Jack had the other piece of her heart. The larger piece, IMO. BUT as Sawyer said himself in 5x08, "I had a shot at her". Sawyer had a shot. He had a part of her heart. So, MAYBE if he was one of the ones who was rescued, Kate MIGHT have chosen to start a relationship with him. She MIGHT have chosen him over Jack. It wouldn't of been a foregone conclusion by any means. Kate still would of had her feelings for Jack(IMO stronger feelings). But Sawyer would of been in the equation. He would of had his opportunity. But he didn't take his shot. So its a moot point. Its all a what if. Sawyer NEVER had Kate fully. There is No evidence to support the claim that, at the time of his jump, Sawyer was Kate's #1 choice(there was nothing from Kate to confirm that). The best you can come up with is that he had half her heart. And If He wasn't #1 in her heart, how did he have her? It doesn't make sense. Jack, on the other hand, managed to be in a relationship with Kate. He TOOK his shot with her. She committed to him. She gave herself COMPLETELY to him. She wanted to be with him. And even up to the end she still wanted to be with him. Jack had her. He became and stayed #1 in Kate's heart. The canon backs this up.

"Aaron was her surrogate for losing the man she loved."

Okay, she healed the wound left by a lover with that of an infant. Can you answer me this: After Kate gave up her surrogate(Aaron), Why didn't she go back to the man she loved(Sawyer)? Kate's broken heart wound would of reappeared after she gave up Aaron. And yet, she didn't try and repair it with her man Sawyer. Why was that?

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

This whole belief because Jack said so makes it true is kind of ridiculous. So what if he said he had Kate? He also said, "Live together, die alone," and when the moment came his mantra was "Every man for himself." He promised to get all those people rescued, and he lied there were dead so they'd never be rescued. What Jack says has very little value.

Both Jack and Sawyer had sex with Kate, but neither really had her, as she never told either she loved them. She told Jack she did, as she was abandoning him to his death and leaving with Sawyer. Sawyer and Kate broke up because of Jack and Jack and Kate broke up because of Sawyer. Spin it however you like, but neither man really had her even though they had sex with her.

The only man that really had her was her husband, Kevin. The one man she wanted most was her first love, Tom, who Jack seems to have been a sub for.

Anonymous said...

I don't doubt for one minute Kate loved both men, though God only knows why she loved a narcissistic bully like Jack. Well, actually no, I do know why, it was because she had the tragic misfortune of being related to Diane Janssen, who helplessly loved a man who beat her like a dog.

My question is this: did Jack love Kate? My opinion is no, he just wanted a woman-slave who crawled on the ground behind him and treated him like a god.

(and yes, Sawyer was far from perfect himself, but at least he showed signs of being aware of it, AND wanting to change for the better. Until Juliet came along and got her meathooks in his balls, anwyay.)

Anonymous said...

^ Okay. It is all good. Kate loved Jack at the same time when Sawyer jumped. You say she loved Jack more. Why? What told you that? Where in the show did you see that? What was the point of Whatever happened happened episode in season 5?

"CASSIDY: They're going back? To the island? [Kate is curled up on the couch and Cassidy is sitting by her.] Why in God's name would they wanna do that?

KATE: I don't know. Jack says that we weren't supposed to leave.

CASSIDY: Well, Jack sounds like a piece of work. You look exhausted. Drink this. Turl up on my bed. Take a nap. [Pours liquid] I'll watch your fella.

KATE: I lost him.

CASSIDY: What?

KATE: I don't know what happened. We were in the supermarket, and I turned around for one second, and he was gone. [Wiping away her tears] And, you know, the crazy thing is, is that...[sitting up] as scared as I was...I wasn't surprised. All I could think was, it's about time. Why would I feeel that way? I mean, why would I expect him to be taken?

CASSIDY: Because you took him, Kate.

KATE: No, I...Claire was gone. I mean, she left him. I had to take him. He needed me.

CASSIDY: You needed him. Sawyer broke your heart. How else were you supposed to fix it? ..."

How do you see this? ... Actually, it doesn't matter, you will probably write something that fits the bill in your head. The question is, why for the love of God would you support a distasteful pairing like Jate? Do you find Jack's treatment of women appealing? Do you want your man to stalk you, yell and scream at you? Do you want him to make you feel small and insignificant? Do you want him to put down your every idea and decision? Is that your idea how a healthy relationship should work? Is that what you think true love is made from? I'm going to guess that you are either totally inexperienced with love or you had to many relationships where men treated you like Jack did Kate, or you just love being used as a doormat, or you are one of those women who idolize and worship their partners instead of feeling like an equal to them, or you are just an obsessive Jack fan.

Anonymous said...

The way Lost portrayed Jate and Skate was that, Kate was afraid that Sawyer was like her stepfather(her real dad), which he wasn't, and Jack represented her military daddy who she adored and admired. But by the season 5 Kate had realized Jack wasn't the one for her, so she bailed on him. His control issues spiced with alcohol and drug abuse were exactly something she didn't want to have in her life, so unlike her mother who chose to endure beatings and abuse from her dad, kate decided to kick Jack out of hers and Aaron's life. But in global terms of the shows writing, Jack's destiny was never to live his life alongside any woman, but to redeem himself and save the Island, to find faith and make peace with his father, that was his story arc. He cared for and loved Kate, true, but he cared for Sarah, Gabriella, Achara... He also put everything else ahead of Kate, and that is fine. But you don't end the show in a ridiculous fashion where he gets EVERY SINGLE THING. Even her. Writers played with Sawyer's and Kate's relationship till the very last episode, then they ignored them completely, like they didn't exist for six seasons. You have to be pretty dumb to not figure it out as pampering to obnoxious fans who send them sewing kits and screamed JIF, JIF, JIF even when there was no Kate or Jack in the actual episode. Lost was an ensemble show, with multinational cast, but that didn't matter in the end, Damon chose to gave in to polls, internet fans and unexplainable love for Suliet. That is the only reason why Jack and Kate ended up together. SULIET. And that says everything about writers integrity and willingness to stay true to the story they've been making for six years, at least the triangle story.
I assure you, if Suliet weren't so popular on the interweb, the story would end with Jack choosing his destiny, LIKE HE DID. Kate and the rest would hug him, say goodbye, Hurley would still chose to stay with him. Than before the Skate jump from the cliff, Kate says to Sawyer I love you and yada, yada, and then in the purgatory crap Skate would get a cheesy scene of remembering the crappy Island together, while Jack get's his rocks off with a freaking coffin, LIKE HE DID.
Anyways, nothing could save the mess Damon created in The End. Nothing. He was so deep into his own anal cavity, that not even miraculous Desmond could "unplug" him.


Cheers! ;)

p.s. Take nothing to close to heart. We are all different. :)

WJames

Anonymous said...

The way Lost portrayed Jate and Skate was that, Kate was afraid that Sawyer was like her stepfather(her real dad), which he wasn't, and Jack represented her military daddy who she adored and admired. But by the season 5 Kate had realized Jack wasn't the one for her, so she bailed on him. His control issues spiced with alcohol and drug abuse were exactly something she didn't want to have in her life, so unlike her mother who chose to endure beatings and abuse from her dad, kate decided to kick Jack out of hers and Aaron's life. But in global terms of the shows writing, Jack's destiny was never to live his life alongside any woman, but to redeem himself and save the Island, to find faith and make peace with his father, that was his story arc. He cared for and loved Kate, true, but he cared for Sarah, Gabriella, Achara... He also put everything else ahead of Kate, and that is fine. But you don't end the show in a ridiculous fashion where he gets EVERY SINGLE THING. Even her. Writers played with Sawyer's and Kate's relationship till the very last episode, then they ignored them completely, like they didn't exist for six seasons. You have to be pretty dumb to not figure it out as pampering to obnoxious fans who send them sewing kits and screamed JIF, JIF, JIF even when there was no Kate or Jack in the actual episode. Lost was an ensemble show, with multinational cast, but that didn't matter in the end, Damon chose to gave in to polls, internet fans and unexplainable love for Suliet. That is the only reason why Jack and Kate ended up together. SULIET. And that says everything about writers integrity and willingness to stay true to the story they've been making for six years, at least the triangle story.
I assure you, if Suliet weren't so popular on the interweb, the story would end with Jack choosing his destiny, LIKE HE DID. Kate and the rest would hug him, say goodbye, Hurley would still chose to stay with him. Than before the Skate jump from the cliff, Kate says to Sawyer I love you and yada, yada, and then in the purgatory crap Skate would get a cheesy scene of remembering the crappy Island together, while Jack get's his rocks off with a freaking coffin, LIKE HE DID.
Anyways, nothing could save the mess Damon created in The End. Nothing. He was so deep into his own anal cavity, that not even miraculous Desmond could "unplug" him.


Cheers! ;)

p.s. Take nothing to close to heart. We are all different. :)

WJames

Anonymous said...

The way Lost portrayed Jate and Skate was that, Kate was afraid that Sawyer was like her stepfather(her real dad), which he wasn't, and Jack represented her military daddy who she adored and admired. But by the season 5 Kate had realized Jack wasn't the one for her, so she bailed on him. His control issues spiced with alcohol and drug abuse were exactly something she didn't want to have in her life, so unlike her mother who chose to endure beatings and abuse from her dad, kate decided to kick Jack out of hers and Aaron's life. But in global terms of the shows writing, Jack's destiny was never to live his life alongside any woman, but to redeem himself and save the Island, to find faith and make peace with his father, that was his story arc. He cared for and loved Kate, true, but he cared for Sarah, Gabriella, Achara... He also put everything else ahead of Kate, and that is fine. But you don't end the show in a ridiculous fashion where he gets EVERY SINGLE THING. Even her. Writers played with Sawyer's and Kate's relationship till the very last episode, then they ignored them completely, like they didn't exist for six seasons. You have to be pretty dumb to not figure it out as pampering to obnoxious fans who send them sewing kits and screamed JIF, JIF, JIF even when there was no Kate or Jack in the actual episode. Lost was an ensemble show, with multinational cast, but that didn't matter in the end, Damon chose to gave in to polls, internet fans and unexplainable love for Suliet. That is the only reason why Jack and Kate ended up together. SULIET. And that says everything about writers integrity and willingness to stay true to the story they've been making for six years, at least the triangle story.

Anonymous said...

I assure you, if Suliet weren't so popular on the interweb, the story would end with Jack choosing his destiny, LIKE HE DID. Kate and the rest would hug him, say goodbye, Hurley would still chose to stay with him. Than before the Skate jump from the cliff, Kate says to Sawyer I love you and yada, yada, and then in the purgatory crap Skate would get a cheesy scene of remembering the crappy Island together, while Jack get's his rocks off with a freaking coffin, LIKE HE DID.
Anyways, nothing could save the mess Damon created in The End. Nothing. He was so deep into his own anal cavity, that not even miraculous Desmond could "unplug" him.


Cheers! ;)

p.s. Take nothing to close to heart. We are all different. :)

WJames

Anonymous said...

sorry for the mess i made with my posts :D

WJ

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Jack and Kate were pretty hilarious as a couple when you think about it. There first kiss involved Kate instigating it and running off like Jack had bad breath or something.

They never even showed Jack and Kate's first time having sex when you got to see Sawyer/Kate and Sayid and Shannon's first time.

They broke up because Kate was doing a favor for a man who jumping off the helicopter is why they made it home, but Jack couldn't cope with that. He even denigrated the man who is the reason he made it home saying he chose to stay on the island.

Then he brays about how he saved Kate from prison when actually it was her mother refusing to testify.

They finally showed a sex scene between the magic duo only it was very dark, creepy and icky. Jack doesn't know what's become of his nephew, doesn't care, but Kate will go back to the island, so let's get it on.

And in Purgatory, Kate remembers the island when she stares at Claire's vagina, not the magical personage of the man she loves. While Jack recalls when he stares at his daddy's coffin.

Anonymous said...

IF Sawyer truly "had" Kate than either she would of stayed with him or he would of left with her. They get in an argument. He calls her on the flip flopping. She slaps him. She leaves. He doesn't follow. Yes I agree they had a love for each other. Were they in love? Did they love each other enough? I don't think so. At this point in the story I think Kate was still conflicted and had a love for both Jack and Sawyer… When Sawyer jumped he had a piece of her heart. For sure. Did he have her completely? Absolutely NOT. Jack had the other piece of her heart. The larger piece, IMO.

We’ll have to agree to disagree about what being “in love” means or who Kate loved more. Kate and Sawyer loved each other as much as they were able at that point in their development. IMO, being “in love” doesn't mean never arguing or always being joined at the hip. When you truly love someone, you love them despite the problems not because everything is sweetness and light.

Yes, Kate also loved Jack but I can’t see how Jack had the bigger piece of Kate’s heart. Hell, even Jack knew he didn’t. He told Kate after they refuel they'd go back for Sawyer because he could see how heart-broken she was.

On-island, Kate put Jack on a pedestal as her Hero and she was his Damsel in Distress (who needed fixing). That’s not a balanced love and the cracks in their emotional bond showed up when they were off-island. No doubt Jack loved Kate, but his love was conditional. She loved him but they separated because he couldn’t accept her for who she was.

As for Jack saying he “had her” and lost her, he only “lost” her because he wouldn’t accept that she could never love him the way he wanted. His lack of trust, demand to know who she'd been talking to and what she’d been doing, his jealous rage, all was because Jack had unresolved emotional baggage and because knew he didn’t really have her; not completely. At least at the end, he realizes it’s his fault. Maybe if he’d tried understanding rather than condemnation, the relationship could have worked out.

And then there’s Suliet who were supposedly so in love, got along great and had a couple years of “playing house” together. But their so-called “mature” relationship fell apart because of a wistful glance.

Honestly, I feel cheated. I didn’t get to see what would’ve happened between Sawyer and Kate if they’d left the island together on the chopper and tried to make it work in the real world. It might have fallen apart just as quickly as Jate did but we’ll never know. We’ll never get to see what developed between Skate after they left on Ajira for the rest of their lives.

We did get to see Jate fall apart in life with Kate still pining for Sawyer. We saw Kate accepting the love that Suliet had for each other; no matter how much Kate still loved Sawyer, she acted like a grown-up and trying to do the right thing. In season 6 we saw Kate supporting Sawyer, grieving with him over Juliet, wanting to “work things out together”. At that point, whatever (romantic) love lingered between them had to be put on the back burner because both were dealing with Sawyer’s need to mourn Juliet, but I see two people who loved each other, worked together as partners, not always agreeing, but the give-and-take of a mature relationship with the potential to someday rekindle their romance as well as their friendship. Sucks that we never got to see it happen.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

Okay, she healed the wound left by a lover with that of an infant. Can you answer me this: After Kate gave up her surrogate(Aaron), Why didn't she go back to the man she loved(Sawyer)? Kate's broken heart wound would of reappeared after she gave up Aaron. And yet, she didn't try and repair it with her man Sawyer. Why was that?


Why? Just for starters:

Because she wasn't an immature, infatuated girl whose sole concern in life was to reclaim her lost lover.

Because she had grown up in three years, understood what was most important in that moment and wasn't being selfish.

Because once Kate accepted that keeping Aaron was wrong (and they found out how it was possible to actually return to the island), she tried to do what would make it right. That meant focusing her attention on finding Claire to bring her back to Aaron, not seeking the man she loved to fill the void left by giving up Aaron.

Because Kate's priorities were in the right place; What Aaron and Claire needed came first, and what she needed (or wanted) came last.

Because she loved Sawyer enough to respect that he loved Juliet and she gave him the space he needed but was there to support him when he needed her.

Because after she found Claire a broken, violent, emotionally abused creature, she had way too much to think about than whether she and her former lover were going to get back together. Claire needed her most at that point.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

"What Jack says has very little value."

who's word does have value?

"Both Jack and Sawyer had sex with Kate"

So what?

"but neither really had her, as she never told either she loved them. She told Jack she did"

What? she didn't tell either. Oh wait she DID tell Jack.

"as she was abandoning him to his death and leaving with Sawyer"

Yeah, but she wasn't "with" Sawyer. He just happened to be there. Kate wasn't choosing Sawyer. She was choosing Claire.

"The only man that really had her was her husband, Kevin."

No. He had Monica. NOT Kate.

"Sawyer and Kate broke up because of Jack and Jack and Kate broke up because of Sawyer. Spin it however you like"

Yeah lots of spinning around here. (4x10)Kate: "It doesn't matter. It has nothing to do with us." Jack/Kate broke up because of Jack and his issues.

Anonymous said...

"I don't doubt for one minute Kate loved both men, though God only knows why she loved a narcissistic bully like Jack. Well, actually no, I do know why, it was because she had the tragic misfortune of being related to Diane Janssen, who helplessly loved a man who beat her like a dog."

Wonderful. Now Jack is on the same level as a man who beats his wife. I know there are a bunch of Jack haters here but come on. This is such in unreasonable comparison.

"he just wanted a woman-slave who crawled on the ground behind him and treated him like a god."

What specifically , from the show, are you basing this view on?

Anonymous said...

Wonderful. Now Jack is on the same level as a man who beats his wife. I know there are a bunch of Jack haters here but come on. This is such in unreasonable comparison.

I didn't post that upthread, but I want to comment on it. And for the record I don't hate Jack. I pity him because he brought on his own suffering by making everything about how he measures up to his Fathers's expectations and not getting help. Most of Jack's motivations and all his relationships reflected Jack's own feelings of failure or success vis-a-vis his father, including every relationship he had with a woman.

Having said that, if you know anything about the cycle of domestic violence, it's not that farfetched to compare Jack to Wayne. Many domestic abusers (mostly men but some women) don't start by physical abuse, they start with emotional abuse... control, shame, devaluation, escalating to vicious verbal abuse and then violence.

And sadly, children in those situations often grow up to repeat what they see even when they know it's wrong and hated it. Jack repeated the verbal and emotional abuse his father inflicted upon him as a child. At least Kate (unlike her mother) stood up to Jack before it got worse, and at least Jack left before it got worse.

This is why it's so hard for me to think of Jack as a suitable romantic lead - period. Jack needed help before he was ready to have a healthy relationship with any woman. The only thing that saved him from self-destruction was the decision to go back to the island for whatever purpose was awaiting him there.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

My point was about Kate being incapable of moving past her abusive relationship with Jack, because she born to and raised by a mother who refused to leave her abusive husband, who even told her she couldn't leave him because she "couldn't help who she loved". It was not about Jack.

Anonymous said...

"You say she loved Jack more. Why? What told you that? Where in the show did you see that?"

Her jealousy. The way she acted about the Jack/Juliet relationship. Sawyer was there for her. She could of had him whenever she wanted. If she cared for Sawyer more. If she had a stronger emotional bond with Sawyer. If she loved him more, than she would not of shown up in his tent crying over Jack/Juliet. If she loved him more she wouldn't of USED him as a pain numbing tool to help get over the thoughts of Jack connecting with another woman. She was upset because she was feeling like she was losing her opportunity with Jack. The whole situation translated to: Kate wanted Jack. She had Sawyer in the palm of her hand and yet she still wanted Jack. Season 4 the camps split, and Kate is team Jack. There about to leave on the chopper, who does Kate go to? Jack. Walks past Sawyer to go to Jack. But really more than anything, the jealous Kate is what leads me to believe Jack had more of her heart.

"What was the point of Whatever happened happened episode in season 5?"

To start a long con on the skaters. To keep them around for the rest of the series. To keep their hopes up. The TPTB knew all about the shiper wars they would be igniting with that. And they loved it. As far as the Cassidy scene goes, I think its BS. That was her theory. She wasn't on the island. She wasn't there with them. The whole Sawyer broke her heart thing didn't and still doesn't make sense to me. If anything Kate broke his heart. She was the one who refused to commit. She was the one who had feelings for another. Not Sawyer. He was 100% ready and willing for her.

"The question is, why for the love of God would you support a distasteful pairing like Jate?"

Because I don't think their all that bad. Sure they lack the "Hot" factor and the flirty/sexy chemistry that the Sawyer/Kate pair has. But to me I always got the feeling these two wanted to be together. To me there was more emotional depth between the two especially from Kate. But there was always some crazy shit going on that prevented them from ever getting started. I rooted for them to be together. I liked both characters. I wanted them to get what they wanted. So I rooted for them to hook up. And after they broke up I rooted for them to reconcile because I could still see that they cared deeply for each other but circumstances were still getting in the way.

"Do you find Jack's treatment of women appealing? Do you want your man to stalk you, yell and scream at you? Do you want him to make you feel small and insignificant? Do you want him to put down your every idea and decision? Is that your idea how a healthy relationship should work? Is that what you think true love is made from?"

I don't hold the Jack character in such contempt. He followed HIS wife to see who she was cheating on him with. Is that bad? Yeah. But its understandable to me. And this wouldn't even be an issue if the roles were reversed. If Jack was cheating and Sarah was "stalking" Jack would still be made out to be the bad guy. Because Jack raised his voice to Kate? He can't do that? Real people don't get into fights and yell? Jack made her feel insignificant? I'm sorry I just don't see Jack as this misogynist abusive partner. That's not what I took away from the show. That's not what the show wanted anyone to see. They weren't perfect together but I thought they worked and I think their relationship was healthy enough .

Anonymous said...

"You say she loved Jack more. Why? What told you that? Where in the show did you see that?"

her jealousy. The way she acted about the Jack/Juliet relationship. Sawyer was there for her. She could of had him whenever she wanted. If she cared for Sawyer more. If she had a stronger emotional bond with Sawyer. If she loved him more, than she would not of shown up in his tent crying over Jack/Juliet. If she loved him more she wouldn't of USED him as a pain numbing tool to help get over the thoughts of Jack connecting with another woman. She was upset because she was feeling like she was losing her opportunity with Jack. The whole situation translated to: Kate wanted Jack. She had Sawyer in the palm of her hand and yet she still wanted Jack. Season 4 the camps split, and Kate is team Jack. There about to leave on the chopper, who does Kate go to? Jack. Walks past Sawyer to go to Jack. But really more than anything, the jealous Kate is what leads me to believe Jack had more of her heart.

"What was the point of Whatever happened happened episode in season 5?"

To start a long con on the skaters. To keep them around for the rest of the series. To keep their hopes up. The TPTB knew all about the shiper wars they would be igniting with that. And they loved it. As far as the Cassidy scene goes, I think its BS. That was her theory. She wasn't on the island. She wasn't there with them. The whole Sawyer broke her heart thing didn't and still doesn't make sense to me. If anything Kate broke his heart. She was the one who refused to commit. She was the one who had feelings for another. Not Sawyer. He was 100% ready and willing for her.

"The question is, why for the love of God would you support a distasteful pairing like Jate?"

Because I don't think their all that bad. Sure they lack the "Hot" factor and the flirty/sexy chemistry that the Sawyer/Kate pair has. But to me I always got the feeling these two wanted to be together. To me there was more emotional depth between the two especially from Kate. But there was always some crazy shit going on that prevented them from ever getting started. I rooted for them to be together. I liked both characters. I wanted them to get what they wanted. So I rooted for them to hook up. And after they broke up I rooted for them to reconcile because I could still see that they cared deeply for each other but circumstances were still getting in the way.

"Do you find Jack's treatment of women appealing? Do you want your man to stalk you, yell and scream at you? Do you want him to make you feel small and insignificant? Do you want him to put down your every idea and decision? Is that your idea how a healthy relationship should work? Is that what you think true love is made from?"

I don't hold the Jack character in such contempt. He followed HIS wife to see who she was cheating on him with. Is that bad? Yeah. But its understandable to me. And this wouldn't even be an issue if the roles were reversed. If Jack was cheating and Sarah was "stalking" Jack would still be made out to be the bad guy. Because Jack raised his voice to Kate? He can't do that? Real people don't get into fights and yell? Jack made her feel insignificant? I'm sorry I just don't see Jack as this misogynist abusive partner. That's not what I took away from the show. That's not what the show wanted anyone to see. They weren't perfect together but I thought they worked and I think their relationship was healthy enough .

Anonymous said...

"But by the season 5 Kate had realized Jack wasn't the one for her, so she bailed on him. His control issues spiced with alcohol and drug abuse were exactly something she didn't want to have in her life, so unlike her mother who chose to endure beatings and abuse from her dad, kate decided to kick Jack out of hers and Aaron's life"

I saw it as Jack was the one who bailed. Kate wanted him there. Clean and sober, mind you. But she never had the epiphany that Jack wasn't the one. She still wanted Jack. "Nothing is irreversible"

"Writers played with Sawyer's and Kate's relationship till the very last episode, then they ignored them completely, like they didn't exist for six seasons."

I have seen this kind of complaint a lot. Couldn't you say, on the romantic front, Sawyer/Kate were ignored for the past season plus. They didn't interact on a romantic level in season 5 and 6. Time line was 3 years of no interaction. The characters moved on. So at the time of the finale they(skate) were no more. And had been for a long time. Why recognize something that only exists in the past? I think the real gripe is with the shit they did with Sawyer like looking at Kate instead of Juliet or the dress in the cages. Little dumb things like that. Tricks that Darlton pulled to keep Skaters hooked. They didn't need to do any of that.

"You have to be pretty dumb to not figure it out as pampering to obnoxious fans who send them sewing kits and screamed JIF, JIF, JIF even when there was no Kate or Jack in the actual episode."

Please. Like there wasn't an equal number of skate fans doing obnoxious shit for Darlton. Come on now. The idea that TPTB, who have created this highly successful world wide TV phenomena, would cave to such a insignificant portion of their audience and change the show FOR THEM is just plain retarded.

"that is the only reason why Jack and Kate ended up together. SULIET. And that says everything about writers integrity and willingness to stay true to the story they've been making for six years, at least the triangle story."

And They haven't been making a Jack/Kate story for six years? Are you telling me, before suliet was introduced, that there was no question at all. Sawyer/Kate just HAD to happen. That's where the story was going. It was THAT clear? I find that really hard to believe.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

No, Anonymous Jater, they haven't been making it a Jack and Kate had to be story for six years. I know it's not what you want to hear and you try to twist things so you can make what you want to believe true. But, no.

Jack was supposed to killed off in the pilot eppy and a network exec demanded the show be built around him. Which is why his back story was so lame when compared to everyone else's back story.

They tried to have him be the shirtless hunk, first, as the first few eppies he kept taking his shirt off. Only that didn't work, so they tried the man of science vs. man of faith, and even though Jack made a piss poor man of science, since anything he couldn't explain he didn't want to know about it, they stuck with that.

They wrote Sawyer/Kate were connected before the plane crash, so even if the crash hadn't happened, one day they would have met.

They showed hour Sawyer/Kate got together and their first love scene. They didn't show how Jack and Kate got together or their first love scene.

I'm sure you'll find someway to twist that so you can believe what you want to believe.

Anonymous said...

They tried to have him be the shirtless hunk, first, as the first few eppies he kept taking his shirt off.

And to this day I have nightmares about it.

Anonymous said...

"Yes, Kate also loved Jack but I can’t see how Jack had the bigger piece of Kate’s heart. Hell, even Jack knew he didn’t. He told Kate after they refuel they'd go back for Sawyer because he could see how heart-broken she was."

Jack thought Kate wanted Sawyer. Sawyer thought Kate wanted Jack. Kate, at this point in the story, hadn't committed to either. Turns out Sawyer was right.

"She loved him but they separated because he couldn’t accept her for who she was."

That's not why they separated. Where are you getting that from? More like Jack couldn't accept himself. Jack was seeing Christian. Jack was getting creepy messages from Hurley. He was going crazy. He became a drunken mess. Jack finally cracked and became a broken man. That's why they broke up.

"We did get to see Jate fall apart in life with Kate still pining for Sawyer."

What scene did Kate pine for Sawyer? I don't recall seeing one.

"wanting to “work things out together”"

She was referring to finding Claire. Not anything to do with them as a couple.

"At that point, whatever (romantic) love lingered between them had to be put on the back burner"

I think, at this point, their romantic connection was completely burned out(At least on Kate's end). Sawyer wasn't on her romantic radar at all. The lingering love that she put on her back burner was Jack. Not Sawyer.

"Because she loved Sawyer enough to respect that he loved Juliet and she gave him the space he needed but was there to support him when he needed her."

I understand her wanting to respect their relationship, but why didn't we see ANYTHING from Kate regarding her feelings for him. Season 5/6 gave us Nothing that showed she was still romantically invested in this man. I understand her priorities were Claire. But we should of seen a little something from her to show us that she still wanted the man that supposedly broke her heart. We NEVER got anything like that from Kate. Instead we see her crying over Jack and getting emotional about him. That's my whole contention with this. Darlton comes out and says this is what Kate is feeling. We have to take THEIR word for it. The very next episode shows, ACTUALLY shows us, Kate feeling for the other man(Jack). What am I supposed to believe? Their interviews or the show?

Anonymous said...

"Having said that, if you know anything about the cycle of domestic violence, it's not that farfetched to compare Jack to Wayne."

To me, that is far fetched. Following your wife and raising your voice in an argument does not come close to physically harming/hitting a woman. NOT CLOSE AT ALL.

Anonymous said...

"No, Anonymous Jater, they haven't been making it a Jack and Kate had to be story for six years."

But they have been for Skate though, right? So I imagined Jack and Kate meeting in the pilot episode?

"Jack was supposed to killed off in the pilot eppy and a network exec demanded the show be built around him. Which is why his back story was so lame when compared to everyone else's back story."

They were still creating this story and these characters at the time of the first script. By the time Fox read for them the story was already changed (he was reading for Sawyer but JJ stopped and switched him to Jack). Nothing was concrete at that point. They didn't even anticipate this becoming a long term series. They didn't have all these long term over arching character stories set up from the initial script. All they had were little plots to build on. And bigger plots were built on those. That was something that happened over the course of the first year or so. I thought he had one of the more interesting back stories.

"so even if the crash hadn't happened, one day they would have met."

How is that?

"They didn't show how Jack and Kate got together or their first love scene."

We didn't need to see their first date. All we needed to know is that they had feelings for one another. Which we saw them build up over the course of the first 3+ seasons. I don't put much value on their "first" love scene or lack there of. That part of their relationship was implied and that's enough for me.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Like I said, you'll twist whatever is said to fit your own beliefs.

Darlton said Kate made her choice when she had sex with Sawyer, but JIFers [Jate Is Fate] like yourself, caused such a stink they caved and backtracked.

You won. You got what you wanted. Be happy.

Anonymous said...

To me, that is far fetched. Following your wife and raising your voice in an argument does not come close to physically harming/hitting a woman. NOT CLOSE AT ALL.

This tells me you've never actually experienced it or known anyone who has. I'm glad to hear it.

But let me remind you: Jack STALKED his wife, SCREAMED at her demanding to know the other man's name, ASSAULTED his own father out of jealousy for something Christian didn't even do, STALKED and PHYSICALLY INTIMIDATED Achara to force her to mark him, etc. On top of that Jack tried to CONTROL Kate, demanding to know whe she was talking to and seeing and wouldn't trust her, he SHOUTED at her in front of her child, BERATED her, threw her past in her face to SHAME her and put her in her place, and USED women to gratify his need for affirmation. Every single woman he got involved with was All About Jack. He kissed Gabriella because he needed affirmation after not being able to fix her father, kissed Juliet to prove something to himself. He wanted to bask in the glow of women's admiration and Hero-worship and didn't like it when he wasn't the center of their attention (hence him refusing to have anything to do with Aaron and going ballistic with Kate because she kept her promise to Sawyer).

You want to make excuses for Jack's behavior, but it's not excusable. It's explainable - for a guy who was damaged and refused to get help, but that doesn't justify what he did.

Jack was a sick pup and needed help which he refused to get. He thought he had to fix everything to prove that he had what it takes to his father, but the person who needed fixing the most was Jack himself.

Par said...

What WJames said. :)

Damon was too preoccupied with what people were saying on forums, blogs, polls and recently on Twitter. That's how he wrote the show.

Whether those polls reflect how regulars viewers felt, nobody knows.

I'm sure Damon's mom would now say she liked the finale, but I'm still glad that she was such a Skate cheerleader in that short pre-finale interview in some paper.

I know my Mom felt the same way. Suliet was never on her radar, even when they were happening. She only wanted Sawyer and Kate together. BTW She never voted in any poll. :D

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Jack was a very sick puppy in many different ways:

He had this weird tick of trying to take on the traits of a male he felt threatened or inferior to. Jack had no feeling or calling to be a doctor, but he became one because his father told Jack he could never do what he did. He even took a job in the same hospital his father worked in. He ultimately succeeded in taking down his father, but the kicker is Christian was getting help for his drinking problem until Jack beat him up and accused him of sleeping with his wife, and this is the reason Christian fell off the wagon and operated while drunk killing the woman Jack ruined his medical career over. When Kate was upset when Sawyer was sick and Jack felt threatened he went to the place Sawyer chopped wood and started chopping wood to be like Sawyer. Hurley even called him on it. Then there was Jack trying to go through the appendectomy without anything just like Sawyer didn't have anything when he dug a bullet out of his arm. And his final impersonation was morphing into Locke Jr. down to calling Sawyer "James" the way Locke always did. Creepy.

Jack also rewrote things to a version he liked better. Like Sawyer chose to stay on the island, not Sawyer jumped out of the helicopter and saved us all. He even lied to Kate the first time he met her when he told her about his first operation and how he concurred his fear. He didn't mention it was Christian pushing him that made him succeed at the operation and afterwards he accused Christian of trying to embarrass him in front of everyone.

There was also his problems with trying to fix everyone. After he fixed Sarah's legs, he took it a step further and decided to replace the fiance who walked out on her, but as the wedding approached you could see he didn't really want to marry her. After they married, he ignored her, but when she told him she was leaving him, then he wouldn't leave her alone.

Anonymous said...

Quote Anon: "Jack thought Kate wanted Sawyer. Sawyer thought Kate wanted Jack. Kate, at this point in the story, hadn't committed to either. Turns out Sawyer was right."

Now where did you get that? Sawyer jumped to give Kate and the others a chance to get to the freighter and because he had doubts about his own worthiness: “I was no more fit to be your boyfriend than I was to be that little girl’s father.” It wasn’t because he thought Kate wanted Jack it's because he doubts about himself. And Kate was conflicted even after Sawyer took himself out of the picture, even after she started a relationship with Jack. She still pined for Sawyer, still kept the promise she made him even to the point that it broke up her relationship with Jack. Who knows what would have happened in Sawyer hadn’t jumped?

Quote Anon: "That's not why they separated. Where are you getting that from? More like Jack couldn't accept himself. Jack was seeing Christian. Jack was getting creepy messages from Hurley. He was going crazy. He became a drunken mess. Jack finally cracked and became a broken man. That's why they broke up."

No, Jate broke up twice. First we see Kate at Hugo’s birthday party and then at Christian’s funeral with Jack and Aaron (still a baby) together as a family. At some point thereafter, Jack wanted out because he couldn’t accept Kate raising Aaron and she said there was no "us" until he could accept them. It was only after the trial when Aaron was already a toddler, that they got back together again, got engaged and then the relationship fell apart because Kate was keeping her promise to Sawyer and for the reasons you mentioned. Based on what they showed, Jate was on again-off again while they were off-island. They were very off-again, at least as far as Kate was concerned, when they boarded the Ajira flight.

Quote Anon: "What scene did Kate pine for Sawyer? I don't recall seeing one."

Here's one:

KATE: I don't know what happened. We were in the supermarket, and I turned around for one second, and he was gone. [Wiping away her tears] And, you know, the crazy thing is, is that...[sitting up] as scared as I was...I wasn't surprised. All I could think was, it's about time. Why would I feeel that way? I mean, why would I expect him to be taken?

CASSIDY: Because you took him, Kate.

KATE: No, I...Claire was gone. I mean, she left him. I had to take him. He needed me.

CASSIDY: You needed him. Sawyer broke your heart. How else were you supposed to fix it? ..."


There’s also the scene where Jack flies into a jealous rage because Kate is keeping her promise to Sawyer and he berates her. And all that goes with this:

"Damon: Kate is raising Claire's son, Aaron, as her own... And we later realize, emotionally, Kate's still reeling from Sawyer's decision to jump off the helicopter. This man that she really loved left her, abandoned her, decided to stay behind on the island. She's trying to heal the emotional scar left by Sawyer taking himself out of the equation.
And this:
Damon: Kate doesn't realize she's replacing the wound left by Sawyer with Aaron. Ironically it's pointed out to her by an ex-girlfriend of Sawyer."

It wasn't just cynical Cassidy. It was the moment of truth for Kate, followed by the nightmare of having Ben's lawyers torment her with threats to take Aaron away. She eventually faces the truth, that Aaron isn't hers to keep and the right thing to do is let go of him and try to make amends. Making amends didn't mean finding Sawyer to fill the heart broken by giving Aaron back, it meant learning to be whole on her own. So when we was reunited with Sawywer she was emotionally a much more grounded and stable person than she had been, and so was he.

-MaryS,NJ

Anonymous said...

"Like I said, you'll twist whatever is said to fit your own beliefs."

What EXACTLY was I twisting?

"Darlton said Kate made her choice when she had sex with Sawyer, but JIFers [Jate Is Fate] like yourself, caused such a stink they caved and backtracked."


Again, what Darlton say and what is shown on screen don't always match up. They said a lot of shit over the years. You shouldn't of believed them.

And you say I'm twisting things. The story itself was already showing that Kate, although she had sex with Sawyer, was still conflicted when she supposedly made her choice in 3x06. The very next episode "NIP" we see Kate crying on the radio with Jack. Showing deep emotions and we saw a shot of Sawyer seeing those emotions. By the time 3x06 aired, "NIP" was already done. The writers had already "backtracked" before the Jack/Kate fans caused "such a stink". The whole "Kate will make a choice" was so over hyped by Darlton, the media, and abc. It was all to garner as much attention as possible for a show that had taken a step back from its award winning first season. The whole thing was a joke.

"You won. You got what you wanted. Be happy."

Don't worry I am.

Anonymous said...

I'm just fine with Jate and Suliet being so prominently featured in such an openly mocked and bashed finale, to be perfectly honest.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Sorry, I never bought all that malarkey about Kate only taking Aaron because Sawyer left a whole in her heart stuff. They'd been doing pretty heavy Jack/Kate, so now it was time to get back to Sawyer/Kate and this was how they chose to do it. She only took Aaron to fill the whole in her heart left by Sawyer. It was just another way to let her off the hook for her actions, like she's going let off the hook for her actions throughout the show.

And I was referring to Eggtown. Sawyer tried what he could with her, but she wanted none of it. She only came to protect her own ass then gave him the kiss off and he knew it. She didn't even ask him to go back to the beach with her.

But considering the way the minute Jack came into the clearing and Kate acted like Sawyer didn't even exist, that might have made him think that while he loved her, she didn't give a crap about him.

I Do was the beginning and the end of Sawyer and Kate. From that moment on when they caved to Jifers and said, "No, Kate really didn't make her choice, even though we said that she did." She's still hip-hopping between Sawyer and Jack like a confused bunny rabbit that doesn't know what it wants.

It was Kate's constant waffling between the two that turned a lot of Sawyer/Kate shippers off the pairing and they embraced the Sawyer/Juliet pairing, feeling she really loved Sawyer and wouldn't treat Sawyer the crappy way Kate did, even though putting those two characters together made absolutely no sense and wasn't believable.

After I Do when Darlton made their choice and then caved to Jaters demands, it became a game of keeping both groups of shippers hanging on believing their couple would finally get together in the end. They threw Jaters a bone with Something Nice Back Home then threw Skaters a bone with Whatever Happened Happened. They did the same in season 6.

One minute Kate is running back an unconscious Sawyer not caring if he's alive or dead to get to Jack, and then she's dumping Jack cold at the temple to go chasing after Sawyer.

Brown Public Library Book Store said...

Good! Then why are you here? You got the ending you wanted and should be happy as a clam, so why are you here?

I come here because I thought the finale was the worst piece of crap ever to air on TV. I'm curious what other people think who aren't like you and got what they wanted.

Lost was a great show when it started and had great potential to end as a great show, only they caved to fans wanting this and that and gave it to them and made a mess of the show in the process.

You apparently loved how things turned out, so why are you here? The only reason it seems is to try and force everyone to see things the way you see them and that's never going to happen. No one here, unless they're members of your Jater sect are going to cry uncle and say, "Oh, yes, Jate is fate."

Anonymous said...

"Jack STALKED his wife, SCREAMED at her demanding to know the other man's name"

To me this is reasonable. Wanting to know the man that stole his wife from him. That's understandable to me. Who cares if he raised his voice at her. She's an adult. She can take it. People yell when they are angry and upset. Its perfectly normal. Happens all the time to regular people. Jack had a right to be angry IMO. Was Jack any way close to the level where he could of physically done Sarah harm? NO. No way. Were those kinds of thoughts in his head? No. He wasn't in a psychotic rage with her. He was just really upset. And I get it.


"ASSAULTED his own father out of jealousy for something Christian didn't even do"

He assaulted a MAN. A man he already had a myriad of issues with. Don't get me wrong this was horrible but why is this being connected back to his treatment of women? He didn't attack a woman.

"STALKED and PHYSICALLY INTIMIDATED Achara to force her to mark him, etc"

You want to call it stalking her. Okay. This woman is coming into his tent in the middle of the night. Their in this sexual relationship. She keeps coming back to him. And he knows NOTHING about her. I don't fault him for wanting to know more. And physically intimidating her? Okay. Was he hurting her? Was he using THAT much force? Was he using THAT much of his strength? Was he rough to the point of hurting this woman? NO. were those his intentions, to hurt this woman? NO. Did he jerk her and twist her arm and force her to mark him ? NO. She picked up that needle and went to work on his arm on her own accord. Don't act as if Jack was balling up a fist and threatening to strike this woman. Come on now.

"On top of that Jack tried to CONTROL Kate, demanding to know whe she was talking to and seeing"

Jack catches Kate in a lie. Your telling me, as her fiance, Jack has no right AT ALL to find out what's going on? Kate just says to drop it, like its no big deal. But something was clearly happening. Both of them knew it. But he want's to know and that makes Jack a woman controlling monster? Give me a break! That's just plain UNFAIR to Jack.

Anonymous said...

Continued

"he SHOUTED at her in front of her child"

Oh poor Kate. He was shouting at her. Again, NORMAL people Raise their voices in the heat of the moment, from time to time. There's nothing wrong with that. And there is nothing wrong if the person getting shouted at is a woman and the person shouting is a man. Women CAN get yelled at. Its okay. It doesn't make the man a cruel woman abuser. And as far as Jack knew that kid was asleep up in his room. And as soon as he saw him he stopped.

"BERATED her"

Yeah, your right. Jack was so damn mean to her. Its not like she wanted to spend the rest of her life with him. Oh wait she did. He must not have been that bad.

"(hence him refusing to have anything to do with Aaron and going ballistic with Kate because she kept her promise to Sawyer). "

Did we not see Jack reading to Aaron? He did live with them for a period of time. He was hesitant at first but he got over that issue and committed to be apart of Aaron's life. He went "ballistic" because she was lying to him.

"You want to make excuses for Jack's behavior, but it's not excusable. It's explainable - for a guy who was damaged and refused to get help, but that doesn't justify what he did."

Of course. Nothing is excusable when Jack is involved. I'm not saying Jack was always in the right. He had issues. He exuded some questionable behavior. No doubt. But you keep harping on these same points(followed Sarah, Yells, argument with Kate) while trying to paint this character as a woman abuser. Like men and women don't get into arguments. That NEVER happens in a relationship? Significant others don't check up on their suspicious/cheating partners? That never happens in a real relationship? Comparing him to Wayne. The real woman abuser/wife beater when Jack has NEVER harmed a woman like that. Nor have we seen him get close to attempting to harm a women. Not even close. And your comparing him to a guy that hits his wife. That's ridiculous to me. Your way way to hard on the character.

par said...

To have Kate's growth and, in the last episodes, her story, be mostly or all about Aaron...

..and then have her end up with he man who insulted that relationship right to her face, in front of that child...

sorry, but it was fucking stupid and IMO degrading.

Anonymous said...

"Now where did you get that? Sawyer jumped to give Kate and the others a chance to get to the freighter and because he had doubts about his own worthiness: “I was no more fit to be your boyfriend than I was to be that little girl’s father.” It wasn’t because he thought Kate wanted Jack it's because he doubts about himself."

I never said that's why Sawyer jumped. I know why he jumped. He jumped to save his friends. Not out of fear of rejection from Kate. you said : "I can’t see how Jack had the bigger piece of Kate’s heart. Hell, even Jack knew he didn’t."I'm arguing that Jack was under the impression Kate wanted Sawyer. At the same time Sawyer was under the impression Kate wanted Jack. I'm not saying that's the reason he jumped. I'm just saying both the guys thought Kate wanted the other guy. And ultimately, Sawyer's impression was true.

"She still pined for Sawyer"

Where? Where is this scene? Why can't anyone answer this? Please, someone enlighten me. I want to go back and see this.

"still kept the promise she made him even to the point that it broke up her relationship with Jack.'

Jack wasn't demanding she stop fulfilling her promise. He just wanted to know what it was. Why Kate just didn't say what it was is beyond me. But that's not what broke their relationship up. Jack's descending condition is what broke them up.

"It was only after the trial when Aaron was already a toddler, that they got back together again, got engaged and then the relationship fell apart because Kate was keeping her promise to Sawyer"

Jack picked a fight with her before she even mentioned Sawyer. Jack had already begun pill popping and boozing. He already had his mind set on getting out. "Your not supposed to raise him Jack" He didn't believe he belonged there. Even though Kate said "it has nothing to do with us" Jack still left. Your giving the "promise" way too much credit. When it was Jack going crazy and breaking down that broke them up and kept them apart. As Kate put it Jack had problems that he needed to figure out. Not any of which had to do with Kate visiting Cassidy. Jack was dealing with bigger shit than that. And this is the only scene this promise is brought up with Jack. Its a complete NONE issue after 4x10.

Pining:
1.Suffer a mental and physical decline, esp. because of a broken heart.
2. Miss and long for the return of.

We NEVER saw this from Kate. Kate never said she missed Sawyer. We never saw her longingly think of him. Locke comes around with warnings and asks her to come back to where Sawyer is and she is as cold as ice. Doesn't even ask about him. Kate was content with Sawyer being gone. Yeah, she fulfilled her promise to him and checked on Clemintine but she wasn't heartbroken over the lack of his presence. You again have brought up the Cassidy scene. Even though Kate didn't bring up Sawyer and didn't say a word after Cassidy's theory. And again you highlight Darlton's words like they mean everything. The fact is there is no scene that shows Kate missing, longing, pining for Sawyer.

"It was the moment of truth for Kate"

Which truth is it? That she realized "Aaron isn't hers to keep and the right thing to do is let go of him and try to make amends. " Or the truth Damon brings up in the quote you brought " Kate doesn't realize she's replacing the wound left by Sawyer with Aaron."

I agree with your interpretation. That Kate was attempting to make amends with herself. But I also believe it had to do with doing right by Aaron. Which meant reuniting him with Claire. That's why Kate made that her mission and ONLY reason for returning to the island. Damon's interpretation is a joke.

"Making amends didn't mean finding Sawyer to fill the heart broken by giving Aaron back"

Because Sawyer never broke her heart to begin with. There was nothing to fix in her heart.

Anonymous said...

"So when we was reunited with Sawywer she was emotionally a much more grounded and stable person than she had been, and so was he."

Sawyer had zero to do with her becoming an emotionally grounded person. Having that child did. Taking care of Aaron is what grounded her. Choosing to be selfless and bring his true mother home is what grounded her. And when she came back to the island she didn't even attempt to "reunite" with Sawyer. She wasn't concerned with him. Instead we had her crying over Jack in FTL. And trying to reunite with him, instead of Sawyer, in season 6 "nothing is irreversible" "Tell me I'm going to see you again".

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