Friday, July 3, 2009

THE JATE AIN'T FATE TOUR 2009



Matthew Fox is doing Europe this summer. And it really looks like he's having a good time! Naturally, his fans have been looking forward to Foxy's time in the spotlight, in this last summer ever of waiting for Lost to come back. What will he say? How will he Hussy up their excitement about Lost's grand finale season? Well, he was talking.



He was talking in Spain.

When describing the end of the show he uses several different adjectives. He confirms talking to Damon Lindelof many times about it and that each time he does that it is surprising that it is so "moving". Some of the words he uses are Beautiful, Redemptive, Sad and ends with saying it is just Awesome.

In England.

The star revealed he is the only cast member who knows how Lost will end, saying: “I don’t think Jack lives happily ever after.”

In France.
...The end is going to be both sad, beautiful and liberating.

He was talking all over the WWWebs.
TVMania: Rumor has it that you're the only cast members who knows how the show is going to end. Is that true?
MF: I do know how the show is going to end because I've been talking about Jack and the story with Damon and I know the overall picture: it's going to be beautiful, sad and redemptive.

You know, however you slice it, it really sounds like Jack's ending is going to be ... SAD. Like unmistakably,



unequivocally...



...SAD.



I don't know what the average Jack or Jate fan thought about all this. They tend to keep those kind of things rather, uh, private.



But it's safe to assume this had to be conflicting somewhat with the vivid fantasies they've imagined.



My God, what will become of all the unborn Jabies???



As SAD as those endings might seem to us, somehow I don't think that's what Foxy was hinting at. And I'm guessing by now that based on this series of interviews, the average Jacker, even the average Jater, has come to terms with the fact that the ending is going to be real, real SAD. But Jack will still be the HERO, right? That's not negotiable.



And he'll get to LIVE of course. Right? Right, Foxy?



So what about Jack? Could Jack die? For Fox it’s a firm, “Oh, yeah!”

What’s even more surprising is his answer to whether he’d like to see himself (Jack) die: “I think that would be awesome. I think Jack will die. I mean that’s my own personal belief. Whether he will die in the last moments of the show or before that will remain to be seen. I think a lot of the characters are going to die, but I can be wrong. I might know that.”


Now the Hussies had to regroup. This was starting to get serious. Sad Jack, ok, that's borderline acceptable. He's like extra uber-cute when he's sad. But not sad and DEAD! Holy shit! Maybe the best way to handle this would be to start up a buzz chorus of plausible deniability.



the pattern and tone of LOST is about the characters and their relationships, with each other and that is why this keeps getting brought up. If you don't like that aspect of the show as much then you won't see it, but it is there and is worthy of "discussion". But, I mean, an actual adult, civil discussion and not the "I'M RIGHT and YOU'RE WRONG - period" thing that happens more frequently on this subject alone. If just needing to be right is that important then this will never go away no matter how unambiguously LOST ends. And there are some who I think will get the happiness that they've sacrificed so much for. Anyway, I think Foxy's interview said alot and while it's still anyone's guess, if you don't like that character, that will keep being debated also. - DocLover1




Matt's exact words about the finale were that it was beautiful, sad and redemptive. Somehow that doesn't fit a doom-and-gloom picture of an "everybody is gonna die" scenario for the ending. Whatever Damon may have said, I believe that it's clear from the whole context of the Foxy interview that he's really talking about the overall ending of the show, not just Jack's fate. - Maxaholic


You know, Foxy doesn't know that much. He only knows the final image.But he has always shamelessly pimped the fact that, in knowing this "final image", He KNOWS the ending of LOST! Yeah, man, Foxy is the ONLY castmember they let in on the big secret. He can't help it if he's special like that.



It's a burden to carry, but it didn't stop Matt from enjoying his vacation. He was auditioning for his next bigscreen flick.



Come on, wouldn't you pay money to see a Bromance movie about Jimmy Kimmel and Matt Fox?



Something with hilariously homoerotic highlights?



There was still lots of fun to be had by Foxy's fans around the great big interweb. Their boy was everywhere and he was styling. He was in print, on television, talking, posing, flashing that big old grin.



Sure, they had to swallow all that SAD, DEAD JACK talk, but that was probably just Foxy being cute and scampish and ...well, foxy. It was fairly easy to ignore.

And then THIS happened:



Let's read this through slowly, for all us nonfrancolingual folk. The question:

SM: Do you think Jack and Kate could get back together and have a future together?


The answer:

MF: No, I never found the couple to be credible. I find it hard to believe they'll go back to falling into each other's arms.




W-w-w-whuh? Oh, my. How will the Jaters deal with that????

Well, first off ... they won't. This part is basic. It's Jater101.

This is how we take it.......we don't. - DocLover1




Even that is a bad translation, no one would ever say that in english... - Paterooni




unless I see it with my own eyes in a video or something that he ACTUALLY said that I won't believe it. - carolilly




Yea, same here. Even if that's what he believes, there is NO WAY he'd flat out say NO in an interview. -LO5TCrAzY




Doc reminded them that even if all Fox's other interviews were credible, this one was not:

So whatever else may be floating around about who said what...................pfft! "They" say alot of things!! No worries at all. It's been Jack and Kate since episode one, and it will be Jack and Kate in the final episode! - DocLover1




That's the first step. The second step is to....



Spin, baby, spin.

So we are not really sure what he said. All we know is what he has said in English interviews here, that we could understand right when he said them, and haven't been brought over seas and probably translated incorrectly. Foxy has never said anything negative about Jack and Kate, and I don't think he did this time either. So I don't think we are too concerned with it anymore. - DocLover


Spin No. 1: It's the translation. You can't expect anyone to understand two languages at the same time. Whoever wrote that down got it wrong. This argument was shot down by one of the resident non-Jate Jackers (who were, understandably, far less upset by this particular quote.)

He was asked what he thought about Jack and Kate having a future together, and he said he did not find them a credible couple. Clinging to the "mistranslation" angle doesn't hold much water because it was done by a pro -- I think those wishing to discount it are grasping at straws. Let's be honest here, it's not like making a mistake on translating a delicately worded, nuance-rich nuclear anti-proliferation treaty from Swahili to Welsh or some tricky linguistic gymnastics like that. It's a straightforward, brief and simple statement from French to English. -The Sacrifice the Island Demanded


Uh, suuuuuuuure, but:

My question is not the accuracy of the translation from the French to English. I've seen the original French and I agree with the translated version. My question is actually on the accuracy of the original French translation of Foxy's English reply. The statement is a very short one and, to me, seems to have been edited from what might have been a longer reply. In addition, it is the first time that Foxy has (if he indeed did say this) said something this negatively blunt about this particular relationship. It's translated as him saying he's "never" believed they were credible - which is either at odds with his previous opinion or at odds with what he told us his previous opinion was. - Dany E




Spin No. 2: It's not the translation from French to English that's wrong. Pfft. That's easy. It's the translation from English to French that they effed up. See, Foxy didn't say what it sounds like he said. He probably said something more like this:

MF: NO, I think they will be eternally and perpetually together through all eternity because they are the most epic love story that the world has ever seen. Duh.


And then the stupid translator got it all mucked up and came out with this instead.

MF: No, I never found the couple to be credible. I find it hard to believe they'll go back to falling into each other's arms.


See?



That's what happened.



Spin No. 3 There are other possible explanations. Like this one: He was drunk! Come on, we all know how much Foxy likes to get his drink on.

And we all know he was tired and at one point apparently with a hangover , he cancelled some interviews, etc. (PS. The press was not happy with that, photographs complained that he wouldn't want to take off his sunglasses each time they asked... and that he put often his hand before his face while talking! poor babies. - LO5TCrAzy




Spin No. 4: Or....my personal favorite explanation of all: He thought they were asking him about Kate and Sawyer!



It´s a result of linguistic misunderstanding – remember, this wasn´t an official ˝english˝ interview – Foxy could have misunderstood the question, or the interviewer could have misunderstood his answer....He misunderstood the question and was actually talking about his opinion about Sawyer and Kate I know, a bit stretched up, but… when you look back at all this previous quotes, and all he´s been saying for the past seasons, and the way the relationships have been developing on the show, especially in the last season, his quote, applied to Jate, doesn´t make any sense; while, applied to Skate, it does. So far, Foxy has always been on Jate´s side, not Skate´s. Ever since S1. Then we got Josh on our side. And then, the last one, Evie. - Jr Jaterville




When all else fails, there's always the old standby:



Spin No. 5: Who gives a frak? It's only Foxy's opinion because he doesn't know anything.

While I don't care nor do I have time to fond over and follow the breadcrumbs that Damon and Carlton leave hidden behind iniquitous wording and such during their interviews, I don't dare try to dissect and extract definitive meaning out of anything that the actors say either, whether I'm a huge fan, which is the case with Mr. Fox, or not. Everyone says what they want and hold their own opinions about such things, and at times, those opinions change like the weather, it all depends on which day of the week it is. - Forever Erica


Fond over? Iniquitous? I love this chick's writing style!




Not to mention, I bet Foxy gets soooooooo sick of getting asked the same question over and over and over again. Next week, he'll LOVE what he doesn't like this week. Worse than a chick man! . He's just making sure he covers all the bases.
- DocLover1


Plus, Doc reminds them how very,very, , IMPORTANT Jaters are to the ultimate success of LOST:

And I doubt tptb want him to start dissing a very important part of the show, that has a huge fan base before filming even starts. Even if filming had started, for him to start saying negative things about Jack's supposed death or Jack and Kate.......? Nope, I don't buy it and I don't think he'd be allowed to do it. So, it's all good! - DocLover1


You know you really don't want to make these Jaters mad:



This is where you really have to give these Jaters some credit. These people refuse to suffer. In the blink of an eye, they can go from bragging about how Foxy is the ONLY one who KNOWS the ENDING!!!! to agreeing unanimously that he doesn't know shit. And once that is established, they get straight back to the hard work of rowing that boat down that river in Egypt.



Thank you for posting those quotes, Doc. I don't think any sane person should worry about Jack and Kate at this point in the story. - Ewiss


Look how far our friends came in just one week. They have accepted that Jack's ending will be SAD. Some have even begun to accept that he may very well DIE. But this they will not accept. Dead or alive, even if they're frakking miserable, Jack and Kate will be TOGETHER.



And no, he doesn't write the story. They may not end up together alive, but I still think they will end up together. - DocLover1


Even the non-Jating Jacker has to agree with this.



This is the scenario I find most likely also. - The Sacrifice the Island Demanded


Ah, harmony is restored. All is right again in the Hussy Universe.




Okay, so now that we've got that settled...............phew!!:wipes head: And as far as what anyone else says or thinks.........:blahblahblah:, that's all it is!
- DocLover1


And just to keep the good buzz going a little longer, they remind one another that this is TEH JACK SHOW, GODDAMMIT!!!!

Yeah, funny how the show doesn't really move unless Jack does, huh? Golly, I wonder why that is? - The Sacrifice the Island Demanded




People have always known how important Jack is to the story. And I mean, the whole story, not just a bit here and there. They may not like it, but guess what............too bad! The episodes you mentioned above are great examples of his importance. Add that to the fact that when all is said and done, everything will come back around to Jack - everything. Those who choose to only see the bad, or what they consider bad, are really missing out on the entire story of LOST! - DocLover1


And plus, all those other fans who don't agree with them are Kerr-Razy.

jack has been and always will be the center of lost. we can see that very clearly. i don't see how anyone would think differently. - maxaholic




Like and love what character you will, but be clued in and objective enough to understand their role in the story, for heaven's sake. It's part of understanding what you're watching, and if you don't understand what you're watching...why watch? - The Sacrifice the Island Demanded




It's sort of, kind of, like that line from Locke in WR: "Crazy people don't know they're going crazy, they think they're getting saner"

Blame that river in Egypt
- Crazy Latin




OMG! LOL! ROTFL! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!
Don't blame the river, it's just plain ignorance! :toungie: :toungie: :toungie:
- DocLover1




Ahhhh......Let's have a few more of those.



Then they got back to what they do best, enjoying the Real, True Story of LOST that the rest of us are missing out on.



You can see their point.



Nothing really ever happens on Lost



without Jack being involved in it.



Like, ever.



It wasn't until Jack got off his ass this season and decided to drop a bomb down a hole



that anything at all happened in Season Five of Lost.



And nobody knows that better than Juliet.

I can kind of see their point. I wasn't a huge fan of Season Five. I'm hoping for Six to be a big improvement. But I do think they've been holding their fire. I still expect to have my socks blown off by Season Six. And so does Foxy, I'm thinking. He seems way positive about this coming season. Of course we have to wonder, how much should we trust in anything he says? Maybe he's trying to throw us all off so we can all squee our little tushies off in shock and surprise when Jack and Kate have a Jedding for real and lots and lots of gorgeous Jabies!



Or maybe he knows what his fans are like and wants to let them down easy.




MF: Well, that's a double edged sword. The fans have been creating their own theories all these seasons, speculating their own endings, it's one of the aspects we have enjoyed the most. The truth is that they will surely have thought of their own endings that will look nothing like the end of the series that's already been written. There will surely be people that will not agree with the ending they'll see on 2010. because the story will not go the way they think it will, so, whether the ending is liked or not, depends on the audience, on every TV viewer that follows the series. I know what the ending will be and I know the argument of the sixth and final season, and I, personally, think it will be a really satisfying ending for the majority, but if there's someone who has already thought of another ending, it is evident that they will not agree.


Let's assume just for a minute that he's telling the truth, even if only in some limited way. Matthew has always said he knows the final image. And we have confirmation that he knows something.

Q: Who else besides the two of you know the ending?

Carlton Cuse: The writers who work for us on the show know a great deal about it, but they don't know everything.

Damon Lindelof: Matthew Fox knows things that are relevant to Matthew Fox, and he isn't really interested in stuff that isn't relevant to him. He wants to know what's going to happen to Jack.


So we now know that Teh Fox is only interested in the parts of the story pertaining to Jack and since he can't stop telling us that he does in fact know the infamous Final Image, we can safely assume the final image is one of Jack.



And we know that he thinks it will be SAD. Beautiful, but SAD. Maybe even Dead-Sad. But in any case, SAD.



MF: The outcome will be, at the same time, sad, beautiful and cathartic.


And that would probably be cool with the Jate fans except for this one little thing. It seems he also knows that, in that sad, sad final image, he and Kate are not together. True, it doesn't completely rule out the Jaters' last, best hope that somehow, some way, if there's any justice in the world, Kate and Jack will get to end up as two mouldering corpses on opposite sides of a dank, lonely cave.



That's the ending I'm hoping for. Not an happy ending,but an epic one,sad yet very appropriate for those two characters imo. If Jack dies,I'd just want him to not die alone,and I think that the person who needs to be with him in this, is the one who's always been with him.Kate.I think them dying together after serving whatever destiny they had since the beginning would be perfect. Bittersweet as they often described the finale to be. Bitter because our two main characters would be dead, sweet because they'd be together. - Franci




Maybe Foxy was giving a clue with that part about "not falling into each others arms." Could it be that the series ends with Jack and Kate trapped in a cave together, and that even then, with death staring them in the face, they don't choose to huddle in one another's arms? Instead they choose to crawl off into opposite corners and die. Or if they're laid to rest there by others, those people don't choose to place them in one anothers' arms, as they would dead lovers.



Sounds like a shitty ending to me, but what do I know? I'm not a Jater. And even though I have to say this tour has looked good on Foxy, I'm not exactly a Jacker yet either. Sorry to any lurking Hussies who may accidentally read this post and wonder why don't we just fixate on the beautiful Josh Holloway instead of watching Foxy's European Sideshow, all I can say is that our guy hasn't been too high profile lately. Seems he's doing a bit of this



and a bit of that



and as much as that increases his adorability factor, there's not much Lost related fun we can have with that. This summer we're grateful to the chatty Mr. Foxy for giving us these juicy little tidbits. The guy really does seem to know quite a bit, or at least he's not shy about claiming to.



He knows about the timeline next year.

On the other hand, here’s a scoop: in the course of the last season, the flashbacks will stop and the story will be told in a linear fashion, without time jumps.


He knows that Ben has been permanently taken down a peg.

Q. Will Jack confront Ben in the last season of Lost?

A. No, he will have to fight an enemy who is much more powerful. But I can’t tell you more because, if I talk, the producers will probably send their henchmen to kidnap me and make me pay for it!




He knows that Locke being inhabited by an alien being isn't going to stop Jack and Locke from having a final showdown next season.

In addition to his thoughts on Jack’s demise and all told through giggles, Fox also shed light on Locke and Jack together: “I think it is very cool to see how and where those two end up in the final moments of the show.”


There he goes talking about "final moments" again! The finalest of which he's been told he knows. And seeing how he knows the final moments, and seeing how he just answered "NO! to a simple straightforward question about Jate being NOT fate...uh, I hate to break it to these Hussy gals, but there's a damn good chance he knows that Jack and Kate are kaput-ski.

Q. Do you think Jack and Kate can become a couple again and have a future together?

A. No, I never believed in them as a couple.




It's going to be a long, hungry summer for Lost fans so it's good of Foxy to throw us some chum. So, please keep talking, honey.



We can't wait to hear what you have to say next!

41 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thank you! So good to have you back.

Anonymous said...

Haha. Man I missed these posts from you.

Anonymous said...

Ah, the standards in Jater spin have not disimproved. Have to feel sorry for them really, that they're reduced to hoping for two dead corpses for their ship, over not ever getting together in the end.

Thanks for summing it all up Fishbiscuit.

- Midnight

Anonymous said...

Yes, this is pretty much the same as when Skaters claimed the Jate kiss was cut and that Skaby was a reality. Can you really not see how alike you are? LMAO!

Anonymous said...

I don't think Skaters and Jaters are that much alike. Skaters tend to be overly pessimistic and to see everything more negatively than it is, whereas Jaters see rainbows and unicorns everywhere. There are some crazy dumb Skaters but overall they're a much more intelligent group, and their spin tends to have a lot more realism in it.

The Jate kiss, for instance, was not cut, but it would have been better off for Jate if it was. It was such a sick, unsexy moment and the repercussions did Jate a lot more harm than good. sometimes I think it's too bad Skaters can't fully appreciate how lucky they've been, and can't see how things are shaping up so positively in the future.

Here we have Matthew Fox pretty much confirming Jate is over and Jack Bender very much confirming Juliet is dead as a doornail. Things are clicking into place for Skate in a way that the sex hating fanboys and nutso Jaters have convinced Skaters themselves is impossible. If Skaters were half as nuts as Jaters, they'd be bouncing off the walls at how season six is shaping up for them.

Anonymous said...

Personally, I couldn't give a rat's ass about Jate and Skate, it's the worst love triangle I've ever seen in my life, and I think Kate deserves to die sad and alone. But, if Sawyer were to return to Kate after that wonderfully powerful scene with Sawyer and Juliet during The Incident, it would be disgusting and it would invalidate the great emotions displayed by both actors when Juliet died.

As for shippers, I still think they pretty much behave the same way, no matter what side of the fence they are on: refusing to recognize when something positive happens for the "other" couple, refusing to acknowledge that Kate is portrayed as having strong feelings for both men in equal parts, refusing to admit that something negative has happened to "their" couple, and, most of all, refusing to see that the writers are just playing with you all to get their own kicks out the endlessly stupid arguments that erupt online over these supposed "love" stories.

Anonymous said...

I see your point, anon, and I agree that the triangle is asinine and that the writers toy with both ship groups. But they also play off the puritanical edge of judgment that Lost fans tend to have, the kind who decide certain natural behaviours are "disgusting", for instance. They're always playing the audience. Everything one group or another has said they could never do, they've done it.

I don't think this blindness and bias is a shipper thing. The fanboys have their own special brand of denial and spin, and they seem to wind up looking just as stupid just as often.

- White

Anonymous said...

You don't have to take my word for it, but I'm the farthest thing from a Puritan you'll ever find, however, I do think that if the guy doesn't mourn the death of the woman who had his back and shagged with him for almost three years, it would make the character less likeable.

I don't expect anyone who loses someone dear to their heart to become a celibate monk, but I do expect that the depth of feeling expressed in the finale mean something. And if he jumps back into bed with Kate right away, it doesn't. It devolves Sawyer into a tiger that "don't change his stripes" and puts him back in the "every man for himself" frame of mind. It would be a shame if they stripped him of the growth he has had these past 5 years.

I don't see how Juliet's death is positive for Skate, unless the writers do a fast forward and imply that some time has gone by before they get together again. Think about it. The reasons Sawyer may turn back to Kate are: he's always loved her, or he's devastated over Juliet's death.

In the first case, it would make him look like a callous man who never really cared about Juliet enough and who doesn't seem to be affected by the death of a woman who stood by him, and declared her love for him honestly and openly; it would also make him a liar when he told her "I love you too".

In the second case, if he got back together with Kate because he's devastated over Juliet's death, then , he'd be doing it to get comfort, not because he really loves Kate.

It's an impossible situation for the character, and I hate that the love triangle determines his arc. Neither situation is good for the character of Sawyer. I'd guess many of the fans would be turned off, and that'd be a shame, given how much more liked he's become since the Pilot.

If it were up to me, Sawyer would end up with a woman who really loves him and no one else, but above all, what I most want for him is that he meets his daughter. I think Holloway's new fatherhood will probably help him make something great out of such a scene.

Anonymous said...

LOL, Fish, looks like you hooked yourself a Sulieteer! When are you going to do a piece on them? They're the funniest ship group of all, especially lately.

Anonymous said...

Why do the Sulieteers always sound so moist, like they're writing the world's dullest soap opera?

Anonymous said...

Oh, see? It's a shame that instead of addressing the points I made, you choose to put a label on me, and then proceed to call me names.

If it's any help I'm not a romance kind of guy. I'm just a fan of the show, and, believe it or not, I like all the characters (even Kate, sometimes). My absolute favorite is Locke, and I hated what they did to him. I don't kid myself that he's going to be the savior of them all, because as far as we have seen, he's just been a puppet whose faith led to a sad, sad death. That's really depressing, and I wish they hadn't done it. To be honest, I'm not sure I'll stick around until the end, given what they have done to my fave. I might continue to watch but I'm sure I will not have the same emotional investment. I always thought that Locke's undying faith would be rewarded, and it was a real let down to see his body spill out of that crate.

I'm sort of new to all this internet stuff, so, I haven't ventured much into it. But it's interesting to see the different takes people have and I found this shipping phenomenon quite strange. I didn't know such things existed or that people could get so invested in them. So, for me, it's interesting to see that and to try to understand what drives a person to have such devotion to a pairing of fictional TV characters.

I was just merely pointing out what I think might be the audience's reaction if Sawyer and Kate were to get back together, but if you choose to label me a Suliet fan, instead of addressing those points, so be it. I really don't care much one way or the other. That said, such reactions do tend to confirm for me that shippers in general, don't want to acknowledge any conflicts that might get in the way of their favorite couple ending up together. Just as much as Jaters didn't want to see that Jack and Kate's relationship off island couldn't last, Skaters refuse to see how badly it would look for Sawyer and Kate to get back together after Juliet's death.

You've done nothing but confirm my initial beliefs, but thanks for trying!

Anonymous said...

Look badly to who? Who is judging these characters, Anonymous, and why do you presume they all think exactly like you? I noticed you also mentioned popularity a few times, as if it's important that Sawyer keeps his popularity, and you also presume his popularity is based on things you like about him.

You've confirmed my initial beliefs as well, especially as you entered a discussion of shipping to express your disdain for shipping, but never acknowledged your obvious preference for a ship - Sawyer and Juliet.

If you were objective as you claim, you'd notice that these same writers just killed off Locke in about as unworthy a manner as he could possibly have been killed. They did that to one of their most seminal, beloved characters, and now for the rest of the series, whatever they do with him, he won't be Locke ever again. If they did that story, why do you think they are concerned about what a few judgmental fans who allegedly hate the love triangle think about how they resolve it?

-White

LostTvFan said...

Aw Fish, time for a hiatus laugh and no one does it better.

As much as I love the entertainment Jaters provide; they are no where near as delusional as the newest brand of nutters, the Juliet/Suliet fans. Take a short side trip over to TWoP and the Juliet or Suliet threads and behold the spin. S6 will be the Juliet show, she will not only escape certain death and end up being Mrs. Has My Back with Benefits but she will bear Jacob and thereby become the mother of all things Lost and any other character expecting a story or even a line of dialog is SOL.

In spite of the sadness of losing another female character; I have to say Juliet got the best send off of any female on Lost so far and nearly as emotional a death as Charlie did. I don't believe Elizabeth Mitchell was disappointed considering the amount of tears fans cried for Juliet, the acting kudos she received or the potential for her to earn an well deserved Emmy nod. Her role on Lost led directly to the lead role in "V"; which looks to be the hottest new show on television come Fall. What more could an actress ask for?

Charlie fans were disappointed, Locke fans were crushed BUT Juliet fans are pissed and attacking everyone connected with Lost and every site. Juliet is dead a a damn doornail. It's a damn television show. Cowboy up, grow a sense of humor and let it go. Suliet shippers appear to be the worst of the lot; with much less history or reason for their over the top outrage.

Anonymous said...

Look badly to part of the audience, they are judging everything, the characters and the stories. Damon and Carlton have said they want the audience to be satisfied. I think some will and some won't. You can't please everybody. But they keep informed, that's why they introduced that Brazilian guy and that mega hot chick, and why they killed them off

I don't presume everyone will think as I do, that would be boring, but I have read other opinions similar to mine, so, I guess I'm not alone. Obviously, that is far from everybody that watches, but I guess it means others feel the same

There's an interview with Damon and Carlton somewhere (sorry, can't remember the link) where they said Sawyer rated second to last in popularity after the Pilot episode, why would they know that if they are not keeping track of who is popular and who isn't?

I have read comments from many Sawyer fans that talk about the charcater's popularity, so I figured that's important to some. I have seen comments from Sawyer fans praising his transformation so much that they now call him James. I have seen comments from people who didn't like Sawyer that like him now because of this transformation. I've seen comments from people who never liked Sawyer and still don't trying to play down the transformation. But based on Damon and Carlton's comment that the character is now more liked than he was before, I would guess it's because of his change, unless you gals want to say it's his shirtless scenes.

You insist I have preference for Suliet, but I really don't. I rather that Juliet stay dead because her death was great. I liked Charlie, but his death has been the best (for me) and I don't want the writers to undo it. I don't want them to undo Juliet's death either, or even Locke's. I'm one of those that prefers the "Dead is Dead" philosophy. The only person I wish they hadn't killed is Locke. What I said is that Sawyer should end up with someone who really loves him, and I don't think Kate does. The only one I believe she really loves is aaron. Sawyer or Jack? No. That's not what love looks like to me. Perhaps I've just been blessed with a wondeful wife. I also said I wanted him to meet his daughter. I don't know why that makes me a Suliet fan, but, like I said before, so be it. If that's what you want to believe, believe it

As to why they would or wouldn't do anything to the Sawyer character, it's their show, they can do whatever they want. But, it seems to me, that they are doing these progressions with every character, changing them substantially, so I don't know why they would regress them to the same point they started with. Even though Locke's death hurt me, I could see his evolution. I guess I can see that what they were trying to show that a man can't live on faith alone and that it could make you vulnerable to manipulation. Jin went from being an aggressive, possessive husband to forgiving Sun for her infidelity and was willing to raise another man's child. Sun went from unfaithful wife hoping to escape from her marriage to wanting to kill to avenge her husband. Sawyer went from "every man for himself" to jumping off of a helicopter to give others a chance. Kate went from a remorseless criminal to giving up Aaron. Jack went from calling Locke insane to believing in "destiny".

What would be the point of investing 5 seasons changing the characters only to regress them to what they were in Season 1? That's all I'm really saying.

Anonymous said...

(second part)
But off course, they can do whatever they want. I really don't care who wins the overrated prize of Kate's vagina; if it is Sawyer, then I hope she starts showing some true love for once, but I wouldn't find it believable after the final scene between Sawyer and Juliet, unless, as I said before, they jump forward at least a few months.

I might end up being one of those fans who is not going to like the final chapter, given that Locke is dead and they have been talking about killing everyone off and about a sad ending. I wasn't expecting everyone to live happily ever after, but I was hoping at least some would. Otherwise, it would be quite depressing, but maybe that's what they are going for. All creative types always rave about the dark, unconventional endings.

I do find it quite insightful that if someone doesn't share your views on Skate, they must automatically be a shipper of some other couple. Very interesting.

Anonymous said...

Oh for the God's sake!
Stop coming here claiming " Hey I'm just a fan of the show but..., hey I don't give a shit about jate-skate but... " stop this fuckery. If you are here, clearly, you know better than me what this blog is for and what is it about. So if you are here and bother to share your opinion, then YOU DO CARE about the romance of the show and YOU DO CARE about Jate/Skate but mostly you care about Suliet.
So please, let's not kid ourselves here with " I'm unbiased" crap.

I think we pretty much all know why Sawyer got with Juliet in the first place. because he jumped off the chopper to save Kate, he didn't make it off the island, he got stuck on that island and then moved on with Juliet, that's what people do, they try to move on.

Had Sawyer going off the island with Kate he'd kept not giving two shit about the "other" woman and living with Kate.

Sure your argument would make sense if this was reality, but this is a tv show and when a relationship falls apart because 3 days before your ex is back...then draws your conclusions. And Sawyer did not lied when he said " I love you, too" to Juliet. He did loved her very much, she just wasn't " the one" and as the finale showed " Just because 2 people love each other doesn't mean they are meant to be together."

Now why in the hell Sawyer would look bad if he had return to Kate? She was the one he always wanted in the first place, she's the one his heart desire to "grow old with". You wanna know HOW THE HELL IS POSSIBLE? Simple : Sawyer will feel guilty about Juliet's death because he realize he didn't loved her like she wanted him to, because Kate is the one he wants. There you go. There's nothing bad about it. If you can't get the clue the show is giving you, then dont' blame on the poor writing and shits.

Lats but not least: Skaters makes assumption based on what the show, media and writers provides. When they believed Kate was pregnant of Sawyer's kid it was because they had actually chances to believe it. Kate goes to talk about Sawyer that she has the suspicion of being pregnant and we knew she got off the island with an "him". So how's that make us like the jaters who think Kate is pregnant because... she does not want to go underwater, she looks at her stomach when she heard the shot and randomly put her hands on her stomach....
SERIOUSLY????????????????

And about the kiss being cut, we were saying that because somebody, a well knowed source, told us IT WAS BEEN CUT.

So quit the crap.

Anonymous said...

And about Kate showing true love... uh Seriously?? Are we still at this point? What the woman should do? She kept a promise to a man she believed never loved her, yet she still been loyal to him for 3 freaking years and choosed it over a relationship with another man. Realized she cling to a child because her heart was broken and this was said OVER AND OVER by the writers and in the show if you only payed attention.

Anonymous said...

My son wants me to say: "emotinal much?"

I guess I touched a sensitive spot, so, I'll let you be. If you can't see how much like "the other group" you're acting, I guess no amount of me telling you that is going to change you.

I was just looking for good discussion, but it seems to have upset you, so, I'll go away now and let you get back to the wonderful world of Skate. It's been interesting.

Anonymous said...

Oh right, when somebody doesn't have any more argument they are all like " aww you silly guys, I'm just someone who wants to make a discussion and now you ended up crying. I'll take my smart ass somwhere else."

Typical.

Anonymous said...

My son wants me to say: "emotinal much?"

Daffy? Is that you?

Anonymous said...

"I do find it quite insightful that if someone doesn't share your views on Skate, they must automatically be a shipper of some other couple."

Not quite. However, when someone makes it clear why they only believe in an initially unmentioned ship, and continually repeats this, it is easy to presume you're a fan of that ship. You seem to think no one was good enough for Sawyer other than Juliet, since you believe she loved him more than anyone else because of a few scenes this past season, therefore you are a shipper of some sort.

I think half the problem relates to thoughts that Sawyer only became the person he is now because of Juliet. I don't believe that, I've loved Sawyer since the beginning and he has proved to be a hero and a good character on plenty of occasions, well before he ever hooked up with Juliet. We've had more than four seasons of seeing the man fall in love with Kate too. It's amazing that fans have forgotten that in less than one season because he lived with Juliet for "three years". We had to be told that, we were never shown their relationship develop. We even saw Sawyer's subconscious thoughts when it came to talking about who matters most this past finale and it wasn't Juliet. So forgive me if I can easily believe that Sawyer tried to do the right thing by Juliet but his heart has been with someone other than her all along. You can't help who you fall in love with, didn't we hear Kate's mother say that? Same goes for Sawyer in this case. How could you blame him for going to someone he loves who is alive and loves him back (watch WHH for that), when the character you want him to keep loving and staying true to is now dead?

We do need to see more of Kate's love for the man but since the writers want to keep the triangle alive for now, we may have to wait a number of episodes before we see more of that again. Hopefully before the show ends, so that fans who aren't shippers are reminded that Kate is in love with one of the men in this godforsaken triangle. As a fan of Sawyer and Kate, no other pair has matched their scenes for me over the course of five seasons. I can never be convinced by a mere handful of episodes of force-feeding. I find it strange that male fans like such unbelievably sickly sweet perfection when it comes to romance. Would have thought you wouldn't care less.

Anonymous said...

I'm quite puzzled as to why Sawyer would be "regressing" if he allowed himself to embrace Kate once again. Let's not forget that it was his feelings for Kate that began changing him from Sawyer to James. The man who selflessly jumped off the helicopter so Kate and the others could make it back was not influenced in the least by Juliet. The man who was willing to give up his life at least more than 4 times for Kate was not influenced in the least by Juliet. The man who more than once risked his life to go back and save his friends was not influenced in the least by Juliet.
Kate opened his heart and it was because of this that he was able to fully embrace the Dharma community and Juliet.

Season 5 made it very clear that Kate is the one Sawyer is in love with. Three years couldn't put out that love and that speaks volumes about just how strong his feelings for her are.
That does not mean he didn't love Juliet nor does it cheapen anything they may have shared in those years. But clearly the writers pushed the idea that they weren't meant to be together over and over again, especially in the finale. That was a very emotional and touching goodbye for Suliet and maybe even Jate. One that few characters/relationships have gotten.

Of course if the story picks up right where it left off, Sawyer won't just dry his tears and kiss Kate. That's ridiculous. But I can absolutely see Kate and Sawyer being drawn to each other yet again. They always are and sometimes your emotions are too strong for you to push down.

This is the writer's story and they will tell it how they see fit. Comparing the scenes each ship has received in the span of 5 seasons, it's quite obvious who the couple they are propelling is. The one who has received the most romantic development: Skate.

Anonymous said...

I have to agree with LostTVFan. Quite a lot of Suliet fans at TWOP are incredibly aggressive and do nothing but bait people. Especially posters like Cassies and DRSwhatever only seem to come into the thread to post passive aggressive remarks. It's a very weird group of people.

LostTvFan said...

I would love to see more of you 'anonymous' posters use your very well known screen names or just sign your posts. The online fandom is a small, small world -- come on, we would all recognize you if you had the guts to use the names you use at The Fuse, on TWoP or L-F. Show a little class, take ownership of and have some pride in your own thoughts.

Seabiscuit said...

That gif of Foxy dancing is a scream, and so is your post. XD

Poor Sulieters just don't get it, do they? Sawyer only started screwing Juliet because his true love was gone and presumably gone forever. And if the writers wanted it to be the ZOMG!epic romance! Sulieters seem to have deluded themselves into thinking it is, it wouldn't have been developed during a commercial break (as some wit on LJ put it).

But no, it's Skate that got the grand, beautiful buildup that it did, with all its glorious first times: first "date", first kiss, first adventure together, first sexual experience, first fight, first breakup, first makeup sex, hell, even a friggin' marriage proposal(even if she did eventually decline by slapping him so hard I was surprised his beard didn't fly off, but hey, she was young and silly. And he was being a jerk.).

What did Suliet get, its first Spaghetti Night? XD Wow! How epic.

That aside, I can see this will be quite the entertaining hiatus, Fish! I look forward to more of your brilliant essays.

methosrocks said...

Love this entry, Fish. Welcome back!

All the gifs are brilliant, but I especially loved all the "spin" variations. The Sulieteers - most of whom are diehard Jaters - have been very entertaining this hiatus so far. I'm almost sorry Jack Bender had to come out and say what all the sane viewers had pretty much figured out, i.e. that Juliet is dead.

I've enjoyed watching them come up with all these scenarios that made Juliet the center of the whole damn show. Dumb as rocks. But very amusing! Thanks for a good laugh. :)

Anonymous said...

Well said Fish. I always find myself astounded by the level of delusion in the Jate fanbase. As someone else said, every shipper group has a certain level of biased but Skaters love to keep themselves grounded. We don't just take whatever we see as face value and run with it. We love to analyze, process and look at all sides of the story.

On the other hand Jaters simply refuse to see anything other than Jack and Kate will end up together. Newflash bubbles, the story has evolved past the little Jack and Kate bubble in season 1, keep up! I find it hilarious that Jaters have now conceeded the idea that Jack might die, but the possibility of him doing it without Kate is an absolute NO. So they have now resorted to hoping for a best case scenario where their couple dies feet apart from each other in a cave? How romantic.

But what is even more pathetic than Jaters is the Sulieters that clog up every Skate forum looking for ways to play their little passive-aggressive game. I find it funny how a blog made about the delusion of Jaters ended up being clogged up in the comment section by desparate Sulieters who have nothing better to than stalk Skaters on the internet. But then again everyone knows Sulieters are really diehard Jaters in disguise. Alright I'll bite then, I'd like one Sulieter to give me a reason as to WHY this ship is an OTP? Because Sawyer was crying about Juliet falling into a hole? Anyone who cared about someone in any form would be HORRIFIED to see them plunge to their death, it doesnt spell out true love especially when we consider the events that lead up to that moment. But of course no Sulieter has the gall to have a real debate with a Skater because they'd end up making fools of themselves considering their whole pairing revolved around Kate. Instead they feel entitled to Suliet endgame because media threw their support behind a two minute ship. Instead of presenting facts, Sulieters are clinging to polls

Better luck next time Sulieters, Jaters or whatever the hell you call yourselves these days

Anonymous said...

The Suliet fan thinks Sawyer and Kate getting together after Juliet's death would be "disgusting". Not unbelievable, or nonsensical, but "disgusting". That right there tells you where he's coming from.

I wonder what he thinks of Jack's recovery from drugs with a quickie shave in the S5 premiere was. Or what he made of Jack and Kate humping it up even though Jack had abandoned Aaron, the one Kate supposedly loves more than anyone else. Was that "disgusting"?

The problem with the faux non-shippers like him is that they just don't see that their interpretations and definitions of what's disgusting or not are no more legit than those of others. Lost is at its core a ridiculous show. None of its storylines progress coherently, especially in the emotional sense. The screaming of the Suliet fans that Skate can't happen because Juliet's death was so powerful is just another voice in the wilderness, screaming in vain about a show that has never given a damn what any of its fans think about the direction it takes next.

Anonymous said...

"The man who selflessly jumped off the helicopter so Kate and the others could make it back was not influenced in the least by Juliet. The man who was willing to give up his life at least more than 4 times for Kate was not influenced in the least by Juliet. The man who more than once risked his life to go back and save his friends was not influenced in the least by Juliet."

^^ This. ^^ Sawyer was a good person and a hero long before Blondie got her claws in him.

Crystal said...

I'd like one true, genuine, not a Jater disguised as a Suliet fan tell me why Sawyer/Juliet are OTP without bashing Kate or Skate. Tell me why their 6 or 7 scenes as a romantic pairing in the 5th season of this show makes them so EPIC.

Go ahead. I dare ya.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
"...if Sawyer were to return to Kate after that wonderfully powerful scene with Sawyer and Juliet during The Incident, it would be disgusting and it would invalidate the great emotions displayed by both actors when Juliet died."

Juliet knew of Sawyer's love 4 Kate yet that didn't stop her from having Sawyer's back (over 3yrs), in a similar fashion Kate could end up with Sawyer. I don't see how she would be invalidating Sawyer's past relationship with Juls or how it could be disgusting? U say disgusting, i call it re-discovery of ure 1st love. And if Sawyer were to move to Kate after time has healed his wounds, do u think Juls would turn in her grave for being disrespected? or would sh be happy for him for being with the woman he loves (according to her anyway)?

-Sbujero (renouned Skater)

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...

"...What I said is that Sawyer should end up with someone who really loves him, and I don't think Kate does. The only one I believe she really loves is aaron. Sawyer or Jack? No.."

What makes u think that K8 doesn't love Sawyer after S5?? Also r u srly comparing a mother's love to that of loving a man??Rly? I think the kind of love u have 4 a child is quite different from the kind u have for a man.

Back to K8 & Sawyer, if u look at their history over 4 seasons , it was always highly passionate/ volatile, 2 very damaged ppl finding love was never gonna be sugery Sweetness and blistering joy Suliet was. But these 2 ppl brought the worst and best out of each other and each dealt with these emotions very differently, Sawyer pushes away, k8 seeks jacks approval etc. Does that take away the fact that they love each other? In fact love between these 2 is the very reason Jack wanted to bomb the island(not Clair or woteva but to erase his past with k8 which was made so miserable by the fact that he always knew K8 loved Sawyer) and Juls deciding to help Jack accomplish exactly that.

I hope I am debating the points u raised as opposed to labelling u.

-Sbujero (renouned Skater)

Anonymous said...

Wow. Have we really gotten that sad in life that you took the time to take a looong crap out on the ACTOR that plays a character you hate? hahaha. I am embarrassed for you.

Anonymous said...

To the last anonymous poster here - ha ha yourself, you've just demonstrated that you didn't even bother to read the entry.

Anonymous said...

Boy these Foxies are paranoid arent they? This piece wasn't about Foxy, dear. It was about YOU.

Anonymous said...

Ah finally, thank you. I was wondering if you would ever do any of those posts again. You've made blasting jaters back to their wretched batshit hell an art form, and for that, I salute you!

Also, what's up with all the Suliet bashing? I'm a dude, but I still root for Sawyer every time I watch a Lost episode. Sure, Locke and Ben are great characters, and Hurley provides great comic relief, but Sawyer's always been my fave. To be honest, I think since Suliet was given half a season to develop and both actors pulled it extremely well, I bought it. Mind you, in any Jate/Skate extravaganza, I'll be on Skate's side. Because Jack is a tool bag. But I never really cared about the Kate character. Yes, Evi Lilly is a very beautiful woman, bit at the end of the day, if Sawyer's character arc is progressing and evolving, then screw her, GO SAWYER!!

Anonymous said...

To Anon who posted at July 6, 2009 1:18 PM, I totally agree. You said everything I was thinking, but didn't want to take the time to write. Good for you!

Sarah said...

Interesting that each of the screencaps of 'stuff actually happening on LOST (not involving Jack)' prominently involved Ben. Dude is so the protagonist.
The Anon who was basically saying it would make Sawyer look like a jerk if he went back to Kate right after Juliet's death: I agree. It just wouldn't show any respect for the memory of someone who sincerely loved him, even if he didn't love her equally.

Anonymous said...

I'm not trying to piss off any Jaters here, just expressing my oppinion.

I think we might get our Skate ending because Juliet's death would have been in vain otherwise. They wouldn't kill her and make Sawyer suffer if they didn't have a master plan ahead for him. Since we already know Jack's ending won't be so nice, maybe Sawyer's will... Fingers crossed!

LOVED the post!

Anonymous said...

I'M loving Sawyer since season 1 and i was sooo much surprised when i saw how happen he were with Juliet in Lafleur. There were cute together, but that's it. The season finale was a goodbye to suliet and Jate. Sawyer was happy with Juliet, but Kate's come back screw up almost everything. Juliet didn't trust him anymore, she was jealous because he was looking Kate. Sawyer said he was with here and blablabla but...Action speak louder than word =P. This little look in the finale means something, especially the moment he did it.

Funny how the same people who were hating so much Juliet in season 3-4 because she was kissing Jack now like her as their favorite character because she's with Sawyer. C'mon, it's stupid to like a character just because it will make our ship happens! I never liked Jacket and i'm still a skater!

I want an happy end for Sawyer because he deserve it soo much i think. Even if he don't end up with Kate, i vant him to meet his daugther. I'm a Sawyer fan BEFORE been a Skater, that's it.

Talking about the french interview; funny how people find excuses to deny what Matt said. I would be very disapoint if i were a jater because he made it very clear. I'M speaking french (i'm from qu├ębec =P) and english too. The traduction is perfect. There's no mistake in it and I don't think Matt said it because he thought it was about Kate and Sawyer. Even if Josh never said that Skate will happen, even if he said he was such a jater, he never said that he never believed in skate.

-0nly-lost.sky' (Sorry for my english lol)

Anonymous said...

WOW. This who blog has to be one of the bitchiest things I've ever seen, in ANY fandom, so kudos to you! I find it pitiful that the only way you can convince yourself and your minions that your ship is still viable is by twisting any other that gets in your way. (Unsuccessfully, I should point out -- you do realise that Matthew Fox doesn't actually write the show, don't you? As much as you probably wish he did. Maybe you should try again when you have a quote from Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse that says the same thing). You can write what you like about Lost or Jate (obviously no one can stop you) but where exactly do you get off attacking and humiliating individual fans for expressing their own opinions on legitimate forums? (Forums from which I hope you are at least banned.) How old are you? 12?! Call me a crazed Jater, whatever, but it's people like you who give shippers a bad name. I bet you're one of those sickos who was cheering as Juliet died.