I would like to present to you Exhibit A, a perfectly innocuous post by our own lostvfan on the Outkasts thread of the allegedly "official" Lost board, i.e. The Fuselage:
There has been a lot of speculation about the meaning of Jack's 'because I love you' in the finale. IMO it was not meant romantically but more along the lines of 'I'm sticking up for Sawyer because I care about you and I can see you are hurt.' I have never seen Jack has being 'in love' with Kate. His actions are not those of a man in love.
I think what initially drew Jack to Kate was the ‘hero’ reflection of himself he saw in her eyes. It was more about his ego than about her. Of course his ego was also stroked by having the pretty fugitive’s attention and once Sawyer was in the picture, it became a bit of a contest.
Look at most of his interactions with her. When he demanded to know the significance of the toy plane, he upset her so much she cried – he walked away having no interest in comforting her. When she was taken prisoner during THP, he resented trading her for the guns and turned his back on her when she tried to apologize. When Libby and Ana died, did Jack even notice Kate’s sorrowful reaction? At the glass wall when she cried and begged for Sawyer’s life, he shut her off with ‘we’re done here’. Hell, even in the walkie scene, when he got what he wanted from her, he turned his unit abruptly off.
When she comes to rescue him, he berates her and can’t even find it in his heart to say thank you or acknowledge that she put her life at risk because she felt she ‘owed him that’. In the handcuff scene, he turns the chair around, blocking her access to him, almost preventing her from getting closer than he is comfortable with. She cries and begs and he never softens. He has made the deal he once accused her of making ('What did they offer you?') and makes no apology for it. Hell he is even taking another woman with him, one he has known for only a week. Kate has been throwing Jack’s ‘live together, die alone’ philosophy in Sawyer’s face, now Jack is leaving the Losties and going home and she says nothing. The last bone he throws her is his promise to come back for her and at least the look on her face does indicate some disappointment with her tarnished ‘hero’.
No, I don’t believe Jack ever been 'in love' with Kate. He has enjoyed her attention, ignored her when she didn’t measure up, never responded to her lame attempts to flirt with him and in general treated her like a bothersome little sister he sometimes allows to tag along. If he was in love with her, he never would have been even been tempted to leave her behind. That is not an option for a man in love; we have seen that a man in love would trade his life for hers.
Kate’s rose colored glasses are getting pretty fogged up. When she finally takes them off, maybe she will see the real Jack and discover what Juliet seems to already know. That Jack is as flawed and human as anyone else on the Island and less self aware of this than almost anyone else. That, in many ways, makes him very dangerous.
Any thoughts and what do you think Kate's take was on Jack's declaration?
Now this post was deemed so offensive that, within minutes, it was disappeared into the gulag, along with all the posts that responded to it. The intrepid lostvfan,probably thinking it was a board glitch that such an innocent and respectful post was so summarily deleted, reposted. And this time, it took but seconds for the NaziMods to swoop in and disappear it yet again.
The kindly, helpful NaziMods explained. First one, the brilliant Majandra:
You (obviously) still haven't understood the difference between discussion another character (as in Jaters discussing Sawyer as far as it concerns Jate or Skaters discussing Jack as fas as it concerns Skate) and bashing the members of the opposing ship and you think yet ANOTHER post by a mod explaining the difference will help?And you (obviously) also think that reposting something that was previously deleted, will make us changes our minds?Well, whatever you're trying to accomplish here, let me tell you one thing: It is not working.
To which we say: Durrr? Mocking of other fans? Can this mod even read?
Then the second Stooge, Carency:
If you are reading the Jater Couch as closely as you claim to be, you would have noted that a moderator stepped in to curb that line of conversation recently (and many times before, as has happened here as well), no imagination required. Thus, such off-topic conversations are not "acceptable there", nor are they acceptable here, so I am not sure why you were expecting the privilege of continuing a similarly off-topic discussion. However, unlike the poster triggering the warning there, you are not a new poster. We know that you know quite well that such discussions are not what the ship threads are for, and there was no reason for us to think that the reason for removal of those posts was in any way a surprise to you, or that you do not know that it is not okay to repost what a moderator has deleted.
Then the third (man, they were ON this thing like white on rice, weren't they?):
Of course you can't imagine why those posts were deleted because you clearly are not grasping what both Majandra and Carencey explained to you. You do not make the rules, neither do you decide what posts do and do not break the rules. Other moderators, not just me, have tried to explain this to you and yet you keep insisting they are wrong. Trying ...Good. If we are ever unsure as to what is real character bashing I am sure that the moderators would love to have your help. I don't recall anyone implying that your post was character bashing...actually is it so important for others to know what was in your deleted post? Let me help with this. Your post was off topic for this thread...Jate can be discussed if you do so in the context of Skate. When you discuss only Jate then it becomes off topic. This is the Skate thread and should be mostly Skate. Taking a Jate scene and discussing it in relation to Skate is fine. Dissecting a Jate scene without Skate context is not allowed. And before you all decide to try this by going on about Jate and then adding one line that mentions Skate, don't even go there as it would be deleted for being off topic...Losttvfan, there is no further need to protest 'removals without explanation' in this thread and claim that as your excuse for reposting material removed by a moderator. The posters of this thread are likely not as aware as Karri and the mods are that you do know the policies on this issue, so as always, you are welcome to take it up with Karri, but the discussion here is over.
P.S. That was the abridged work of the eloquent Halfrek if you couldn't guess.
Now we all need frequent re-education sessions from these Big Brother clones, so let's trot on over to our neighbor, the Jater Couch, otherwise known as The Land of The Holier Than Thou, and see how things are done over there. We'll choose a few posts at random, just a sampllng, just a slice of the Jate Cake, if you will:
Now, remember, I'm quoting only posts here that are STILL STANDING on the Couch. They weren't instantly deleted. They weren't deleted at all.
And for the record, I do not expect anyone to read any of this drivel, so I'm going to save some space and shrink it down a bit because - face it - none of us needs to have our brains turned to mashed potatoes. But to be helpful, please note that the words Sawyer, Skate and Skex are all bolded to show how frequently our good little shipper friends manage to bring him up on a thread where he is in no way shape or form supposed to be the topic:
Forever_Erica
Okay, this idiot that you were talking to is obviously a surfacy thinker, those kinds of people see the world as it is and asks zero questions. None, they just accept what's happened and move on. I, for one, am a very complex thinker..
Whiter Rabbit
However, I think you're being much too generous toward Sawyer and his part in the 'square' . I've always believed that Sawyer's primary concern in his relationship with Kate was whatever was best for Sawyer at that particular moment, so I don't think that Kate really owes Sawyer much consideration in ending their ... 'understanding' . It would be best for everyone concerned if she made it clear to Sawyer, quickly and cleanly, that things were over between them.
DocLover
But Sawyer is someone the fans liked, and people thought he was hot and sexy - so why not create some "circumstance" where Sawyer and Kate can "heat things up", without showing an actual real choice having been made on Kate's part? (So as to keep the Jack/Kate love alive). So that's what the mini-arc was for, and we all saw how well that went over. It failed miserably. Sure, it made people love Sawyer more - but Kate's credibility with the fans kind of went downhill after that.
WhiterRabbit (again)
Sorry Gheal, but I can't really agree with that. I will always believe that Skex was a terrible mistake on the writers part, one that did major damage to Kate's character. While I could see the value in exploring why Kate might be more comfortable in interacting with a man like Sawyer (because he was the type of man she was used to dealing with, as apposed to Jack), using Skex to bring that about was just about the worst decision the writers could have made.
Forever_Erica (again)
I think that it’s a GREAT thing that Kate explored Sawyer before Jack. I completely agree with this. When Skex#1 happened, obviously Kate was afraid for Sawyer, but then again she was afraid PERIOD (considering the fact that she kissed Sawyer, he asked her why she did it, she said “I don’t know”, lowered her head, mumbling, then Sawyer raises her head to look at him and in the most frightened and scared tone Kate says “I don’t know…” FOR THE SECOND TIME). I think that with Skate, Kate was scratching an itch so to speak. Skex #1 she was afraid and lost, but that was about it. Skex#2 and Skex#3 were all about Jack, all about him. She saw him with Juliet and then ran to Sawyer (“shut up and don’t talk”…wow, how romantic). Kate and Jack still aren’t speaking and so she goes to Sawyer again (“I can’t sleep if I’m not in my own tent”…PUH-lease!).
Kate’s relationship with Jack was established from the very beginning (I heard from a Jater friend of mine that the Pilot was 50% Jate dialogue!) and it established the incredible dynamic between the two characters and her relationship with Sawyer was rocky, at best, from the start. Skate being addressed in season three was a blessing in disguise. It hurts to see Kate and Sawyer kissing and what-not, but we all know why she’s doing it, it’s so painstakingly obvious why. Being with Sawyer in that romantic way was a mistake and Kate knows that. Skex #1, 2 and 3 were disasters and they all consisted of Kate using Sawyer and Sawyer being open to being used.
Skate has completely lost steam and it can’t last. Skate is nearing the end. Kate knows that and Sawyer knows that, look at the way they treat each other in the s3 Finale. And Jack’s ILY…OMG…Skate will NEVER survive that. Now, the prospect of Kate being pregnant is absolutely ridiculous. We already have a pregnant Sun and Claire was pregnant for most of season one; there’s no way that Kate being pregnant is in the best interest of the show. No way. And it’s not her destiny to be pregnant with Sawyer’s kid. Season three made it completely obvious beyond belief that Kate never loved Sawyer in that way and that she's in love with Jack.
DocLover (again)
have to agree with you on this one White Rabbit. Sawyer is out for Sawyer. He KNOWS that Kate loves Jack, he KNOWS he's being used and he's okay with that.....why?? Because he gets to knock off some island booty. Kate told Sawyer from the beginning that she only said she loved him so they would stop beating the ever-lovin' out of him, and that hasn't changed. She didn't just fall in love with him a day later. She's had plenty of opportunity, and she's been asked by Sawyer "point blank" - yet she can't and won't say she loves him.
I don't think Kate "owes" Sawyer anything. She wanted to go back for Jack and Sawyer was, as usual, ALL ABOUT HIMSELF and crying like a little girl over his "stash". He doesn't care about anyone, I mean really care - unless he's being threatened with banishment, and then he pretends to be nice. Which we all saw was a total struggle for him. And as far as Sawyer as their leader........God help them if that happens.
I was just informed that LOST did not lose 5 million viewers after the mini-arc. I was provided all sorts of numbers to go with this information. (although to go from about 17 million viewers during the mini-arc to about 12 million, give or take, AFTER the mini-arc, seems pretty close to 5 million to me) Unless there's some new math I'm not familiar with But whatever. Also, every article I read after the mini-arc was reported that LOST lost 5 million viewers after the mini-arc. I don't care if I got the numbers wrong. They lost viewers, and it was because of the mini-arc and EVERYTHING involved in it, and yes, that includes the Skex. I know that stings some people too, but it certainly wasn't Jate that chased them away, as they were not in the mini-arc, except for the few true moments they shared. So be careful what you write here - you'll be corrected if you're wrong!
Forever_Erica (yes, again)
SKEX was the naill in the coffin for most viewers. Yes, other factors played into it, but come on! Skex had as much to do with LOST losing all those viewers as anything else and you can throw all the stats and numbers at me that you can find, it doesn't prove that Skex wasn't the cause (and the LACK of Jate didn't help with the ratings either). "I Do" was the worst episode of the arc IMHO and I really think that people were just appalled by it altogether and basically said, "LOST isn't worth the headache anymore."
I, for one, am a LOYAL fan of the show from the VERY beginning (the Pilot), who watched the 'dreaded arc' and even I wanted to give up on LOST (but my love for Jack and Jate wouldn't let me ). I stuck through it and Skex really did nothing for me. Nothing. It was a utter disaster. Jate grew and evolved from Skex and Skate if anything.
And for good measure, our resident Krystal ball reader:
This is one persons opinion though. That person couldn't possibly know why 4 million people stopped watching the show, so to say it's based solely on a later time slot and not the quality of the story telling is inaccurate. Everyone I've spoken to IN PERSON lol says to the contrary. They didn't like the mini-arc because of the story and they also felt that the quality of the show wasn't up to par. When I've asked a few of my regular customers why they have stopped watching the show, they tell me the exact same things. Only one person told me that the length of the hiatus was what drove her away and when I brought up the fact that Lost goes on "hiatus" every summer, she responded with, "that's true, maybe I was just fed up with the stories."
Trust me, I'm talking the tip of the iceberg here. I could easily have gone on five times longer.
Now to summarize:
1. Most of these posts were written not by newbies, like the egomaniacal devout Christian Forever_Erica, but by old timers who "know the rules" (as if anyone knows the fucking rules of the Fuse).
2. None of them discuss Jate.
3. All of them discuss Skate in detail, slamming it incessantly.
4. Most of them BASH Sawyer incessantly.
5. Some of them, especially those of the egomaniacal devout Christian Forever_Erica also slam other posters.
6. NONE OF THEM WAS DELETED.
There was a really harsh warning given (yup, just one) from the always fair Halfrek:
so i see that you have some new Jaters. that is great, however it is evident that these new posters did not read the rules or something. you regular Jaters should be setting an example and not encouraging such behaviour. tsk tsk!
reminders:
this is the Jater couch, not the call people names (idiot) , bash other ships or generally discuss everything except for Jate.
discussing illegal behaviour (downloading) is against the rules.
you all may want to review these rules again before the mods come through with a heavy hand and just remove the entire conversation. thank you.
Wow! She told them, didn't she? She didn't even have the energy to push down her Caps key on the computer. I wonder - if they're really, really bad will she send them all to bed without any Jate Cake?
The Fuse is a Dead Zone.
Literally. It's like a big old mildewed, decrepit, condemned building. The only inhabitants left gnawing on the rotten cheese left under the seat cushions are the bloated rats having a party because they've finally become homeowners! When was the last time anyone read an intelligent post at the Fuse, or witnessed a vibrant debate?
It's getting to the point the only conversations that will happen there will all go something like this.
Forever Erica: Aren't I great the way I see the truth ?
DocLover: Yes, F-E you are really great. And Jate is fate, right?
Forever Erica: PUHLEEEZE, Jate is so fate it's not funny. And Sawyer needs to die by having his balls torn off by rabid animals, right?
DocLover: That's too good for him the most vile piece of human scum that ever ruined my life! I NEED to see him DEAD! NOW!
Krystal: Just so you both know, everyone on Earth agrees with you.
Forever Erica + DocLover in unison: Oh, we know. :bob heads:
Whiter Rabbit: Oh my, these brilliant and scintillating discussions have put me in the mood to bastardize some great work of literature. Should I mutilate a great poem or a great speech? I know! I'll find some lines of sacred scripture from the Bible and deface it with JATE!
DocLover: Oh, Whiter Rabbit! You are making me hot! Can I have your babies? :grin:
Whiter Rabbit: No, I don't believe in sex, you hussy. Don't you read my posts?
Forever Erica: Of course not Whiter Rabbit. Jaters are too good for that! We're the GOOD GUYS! We only believe in JEX!
Listen, we all know the Fuse is irrelevant. It's a cesspool frequented by the dregs of the fandom, people who actually like having their diapers changed and their bottoms spanked by emotionally unstable mods. The only problem with it is that it continues to carry the cachet of being "Official". It really is emblematic of how intellectually degenerate so much of the online Lost fandom seems to be that they allow a shithole like this to represent them in any way, shape or form. Think about it. You've all had discussions about Lost with friends and family. Have you ever had a conversation as inane and stupid as the ones that are carried on there? Or one as polluted and mean spirited as the ones that are driven by the sanctimonious fans of the "good" guy?
I know no one posts there any more. And I sure don't encourage anyone to give them the satisfaction. But we do need to keep an eye on it and keep letting them know we understand what hypocrites they are. And how lousy it is that they stole the Fuselage from the Lost fans and turned it into such an embarrassment to this fandom and to our show.
So, never fear, we're staying on it. As long as that word "Official" stays in the title. The minute that comes down, and only then, we'll be very, very happy to leave them alone to wallow in their stink.
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